View Full Version : What's so special about biggie as a lyricist???
Seriously? He had some witty punchlines, was good a storytelling, but nothing compared to a lot of rappers out there during his time. Why is he considered a g.o.a.t? At least pac had a assortment of topics, all biggie talked about was bytches, guns and drugs, and was not even that clever about it. Can someone please enlighten me as to why he is considered a goat?
dued i have this argument with all kind of cats all the time. i c/s you're whole purpose of this thread. Let the games begin
dued i have this argument with all kind of cats all the time. i c/s you're whole purpose of this thread. Let the games begin
yeah man i ain't tryna diss duke or nothin', and tried to give it a fair chance and played tracks of all his albums, yet still, I couldn't find what's so special about him. He has a great flow but lots of rappers had that, Big L's first album is more witty and entertaining than biggie's catalog.
i guess nobody knows why duke is considered a legend, lol. I think it is more cuz he was seen as the east's rival to west coast's pac, had pac had his beef with another east coast artist and they died, they would have been considered the goat for that era.
YaBoyMike969
12-12-07, 07:12 PM
The energy in his flow, his voice, his storytelling ability, and how clever and witty dude was...
Plus at that time, selling crack and packin gats wasn't the norm in east coast hip hop, so people liked him 4 that
JRS_One
12-12-07, 07:12 PM
I think New Yorkers highly overrate him.
I DO think Ready To Die is a classic album, that sh*t is just atmospheric and epic. Great Beats, Great Lyrics, Great Flow, Great Subjects.
However Life After Death is a big pile of sh*t!!! Most overrated album ever, and if Biggie lived he probably would have sold out even more, i mean only 2 songs off that album stand out to me off the top off my head (10 crack commandments, story to tell).
Legendary
12-12-07, 07:12 PM
i guess nobody knows why duke is considered a legend, lol. I think it is more cuz he was seen as the east's rival to west coast's pac, had pac had his beef with another east coast artist and they died, they would have been considered the goat for that era.
Exactly...Imagine if it was Nas that died afer IWW...
YaBoyMike969
12-12-07, 07:13 PM
yeah man i ain't tryna diss duke or nothin', and tried to give it a fair chance and played tracks of all his albums, yet still, I couldn't find what's so special about him. He has a great flow but lots of rappers had that, Big L's first album is more witty and entertaining than biggie's catalog.
Big L's first album wasn't even on the same level as "Ready to Die" cuz
thekingsmen
12-12-07, 07:13 PM
The reason why he is "G.O.A.T" cause when he passed away, P. Diddy put that title on BIG and no one really question it cause everyone liked BIG's music.
But I agree without the flow and the story-telling, Biggie was nothing special.
illwill01
12-12-07, 07:15 PM
he was special as a complete MC much moreso than just a pure lyricist.
YaBoyMike969
12-12-07, 07:15 PM
SMH at this whole thread, The East Coast woulda still been on the Tribe Called Quest nerd tip, or Wu Tang Comic Book character tip if it wasn't for Biggie
thekingsmen
12-12-07, 07:16 PM
Plus at that time, selling crack and packin gats wasn't the norm in east coast hip hop, so people liked him 4 that
Not true. Heads was talking about Gats and drug before Biggie in NY, plus that had nothing to do with why people liked his music. :thumbsdow
Asante1010
12-12-07, 07:16 PM
yeah man i ain't tryna diss duke or nothin', and tried to give it a fair chance and played tracks of all his albums, yet still, I couldn't find what's so special about him. He has a great flow but lots of rappers had that, Big L's first album is more witty and entertaining than biggie's catalog.
i guess nobody knows why duke is considered a legend, lol. I think it is more cuz he was seen as the east's rival to west coast's pac, had pac had his beef with another east coast artist and they died, they would have been considered the goat for that era.
:yes:
houston911
12-12-07, 07:16 PM
he was a good lyricist, great storyteller, witty....but hes not close to nas lyrically yet clowns call big the best lyricist ever
hes one of the best ever, 2 classics in 2 attempts. jay-z's daddy
YaBoyMike969
12-12-07, 07:17 PM
Listen to his verse on 112's "Only You" and ull get ur answer
Tetris v2.0
12-12-07, 07:18 PM
The reason why he is "G.O.A.T" cause when he passed away, P. Diddy put that title on BIG and no one really question it cause everyone liked BIG's music.
You gotta hand it to Diddy. He really showed that if you say something enough people will believe it. Big was dope as hell, but its a slap to MCs that were on before him and are still doing it, to constantly hand out Top5s and GOATs to Biggie. He had a 3 year run.
YaBoyMike969
12-12-07, 07:19 PM
Not true. Heads was talking about Gats and drug before Biggie in NY, plus that had nothing to do with why people liked his music. :thumbsdow
In 94 east coast hip hop was De La Soul, Tribe, Digible Planets, Gangstarr, Boot Camp Clique, iLL and All Skratch... Who Else was rapping about selling crack and guns like dat?
thekingsmen
12-12-07, 07:19 PM
SMH at this whole thread, The East Coast woulda still been on the Tribe Called Quest nerd tip, or Wu Tang Comic Book character tip if it wasn't for Biggie
:thumbsdow
thekingsmen
12-12-07, 07:21 PM
In 94 east coast hip hop was De La Soul, Tribe, Digible Planets, Gangstarr, Boot Camp Clique, iLL and All Skratch... Who Else was rapping about selling crack and guns like dat?
Is that the only kats u know on the scene then?
YaBoyMike969
12-12-07, 07:37 PM
Is that the only kats u know on the scene then?
no, but those were who were poppin at that time
thekingsmen
12-12-07, 07:38 PM
In 94 east coast hip hop was De La Soul, Tribe, Digible Planets, Gangstarr, Boot Camp Clique, iLL and All Skratch... Who Else was rapping about selling crack and guns like dat?
I guess u never heard of this little group named Onyx.
wasn't mobb deep poppin' in '93 with juvenile hell? what about kool g rap and tim dog too?
danja29
12-12-07, 07:44 PM
In 94 east coast hip hop was De La Soul, Tribe, Digible Planets, Gangstarr, Boot Camp Clique, iLL and All Skratch... Who Else was rapping about selling crack and guns like dat?
To say East Coast hip-hop in '94 was all about those people you named till Biggie came along is wrong on so many levels. Digable Planets were def. not a frontrunning group at that time. Ill & Al Skratch had a couple hot singles but neither were they. De La Soul was pretty much in the same boat as Digable by that point. I'll give you GangStarr and Quest.
But when it came to the main artists who were bumped on the East that year... when I listen to mixtapes from that time, I don't hear Digable Planets and De La Soul. I hear Wu-Tang (who made street sh*t), Black Moon (who made street sh*t), Smif-N-Wessun (who made street sh*t), Nas (who made street sh*t), and of course Biggie (who made street sh*t)... and others like M.O.P., Mobb Deep, and Fat Joe (who made street sh*t). MOST East Coast hip-hop in '94 was about niqqas with hoodies and boots either on some hardcore sh*t or some storytelling sh*t- not to mention a buncha random niqqas tryin' to sound like Onyx (who were damn near over-the-top with the gun talk). It def. wasn't no whole bunch of De La-type sh*t poppin' off. That was a section of it, but it wasn't the dominant sh*t at all. If you were talkin' about '91, I might agree with you... but def. not '94. That style was on the decline by then.
To the threadstarter, all I can say is: if you don't know by now (even in hindsight) what made Biggie great, I doubt you'll learn it thru this thread. There mighta been other dudes out there who were great lyrically, but BIG put it all together. He wasn't just strong in one category, he was strong to the point where people have spent their whole careers tryin' to duplicate his range. He could tell a story, he could do some straight up hard sh*t, he could do some witty lyrical sh*t, he could do a joint girls rocked with and niqqas at least respected... and in doing all of this, his lyrics were on point. Not a lot of people at that time or even now can do the same.
MICKEY G
12-12-07, 07:49 PM
Biggie strayed away from lyricism to sell records. Listen to Dead Wrong which shows his lyrical fury back in 91. He was the first East Coast cat to actually combine lyricism and flow to go over the funk beats smoothly that dominated mainstream hip hop around 94. Snoop had one of the best flows at the time, but he wasn't lyricist in the vain of the elite of the East Coast.
Biggie's flow was ahead of its time though. He didn't have to write because he just tried to feel the track. He invented the modern day flow and delivery. All these cats like Hov, Jadakiss, and Wayne brag about not writing, but Biggie mastered that. With that comes a step back in lyricism, but Biggie was still able to compete with the top MCs who were better lyricist(Nas, AZ, Big L, Raekwon).
It's his flow and delivery is what he should be admired for. Listen to BK's finest. He straight murders Jay on that just based on flow alone. Jay should thank Big for his flow.
I thought it was common knowledge that Big ain't as lyrical as Nas? Is it not?
boombche_stum
12-12-07, 07:55 PM
Seriously? He had some witty punchlines, was good a storytelling, but nothing compared to a lot of rappers out there during his time. Why is he considered a g.o.a.t? At least pac had a assortment of topics, all biggie talked about was bytches, guns and drugs, and was not even that clever about it. Can someone please enlighten me as to why he is considered a goat?
Witty, entertaining lyricist. One of the best flows in hip hop. Strong mic presence. Great storytelling.
He was an MC, do you young nyggas know what that means? I swear, yall talking this, "He never rapped about anything else besides guns, bytches and crack".... and that makes a difference how? Nobody said he was a complete ARTIST like Pac, but as an MC dude was on some next level shyt.
danja29
12-12-07, 08:15 PM
Look at it like this: just about the only thing people can discredit BIG on is that he never spoke on world issues or made "uplifting" music.
But as it relates to him strictly on a music/lyrical level, there's not much you can take away from him. You can't say he wasn't street enough cause he'd hit you with "Ten Crack Commandments" or "Who Shot Ya". You can't say he had no mainstream appeal, cause he could do a "Hypnotize" or "One More Chance". You can't say he couldn't just go on some lyrical sh*t, cause he'd have an "Unbelievable" tucked away. You can't say his flow was the same all the time, cause his sh*t always fit the mood or movement of each track. There's maybe a handful of artists you could credibly put in that same light. A lot of people have tried to achieve that, but there's only a few who've effectively done that. With most artists, they're either going in one direction or the other, or they're strong lyrically but don't have the overall songs to match. I dunno about the "all he rapped about was..." thing- they mighta been his central themes but to say he never rhymed about anything else is kinda reaching.
Swagger
12-12-07, 08:34 PM
everything
nita0312
12-12-07, 08:36 PM
To say East Coast hip-hop in '94 was all about those people you named till Biggie came along is wrong on so many levels. Digable Planets were def. not a frontrunning group at that time. Ill & Al Skratch had a couple hot singles but neither were they. De La Soul was pretty much in the same boat as Digable by that point. I'll give you GangStarr and Quest.
But when it came to the main artists who were bumped on the East that year... when I listen to mixtapes from that time, I don't hear Digable Planets and De La Soul. I hear Wu-Tang (who made street sh*t), Black Moon (who made street sh*t), Smif-N-Wessun (who made street sh*t), Nas (who made street sh*t), and of course Biggie (who made street sh*t)... and others like M.O.P., Mobb Deep, and Fat Joe (who made street sh*t). MOST East Coast hip-hop in '94 was about niqqas with hoodies and boots either on some hardcore sh*t or some storytelling sh*t- not to mention a buncha random niqqas tryin' to sound like Onyx (who were damn near over-the-top with the gun talk). It def. wasn't no whole bunch of De La-type sh*t poppin' off. That was a section of it, but it wasn't the dominant sh*t at all. If you were talkin' about '91, I might agree with you... but def. not '94. That style was on the decline by then.
To the threadstarter, all I can say is: if you don't know by now (even in hindsight) what made Biggie great, I doubt you'll learn it thru this thread. There mighta been other dudes out there who were great lyrically, but BIG put it all together. He wasn't just strong in one category, he was strong to the point where people have spent their whole careers tryin' to duplicate his range. He could tell a story, he could do some straight up hard sh*t, he could do some witty lyrical sh*t, he could do a joint girls rocked with and niqqas at least respected... and in doing all of this, his lyrics were on point. Not a lot of people at that time or even now can do the same.
Close thread. :yes:
Luce Cipher
12-12-07, 08:41 PM
Seriously? He had some witty punchlines, was good a storytelling, but nothing compared to a lot of rappers out there during his time. Why is he considered a g.o.a.t? At least pac had a assortment of topics, all biggie talked about was bytches, guns and drugs, and was not even that clever about it. Can someone please enlighten me as to why he is considered a goat?
i thought i was the only one who felt this way...The source and puffy brainwashed yall man, i mean dont get me wrong he was good, but damn the best ever? With two albums? Over Rakim, Krs, Jay, Nas, Pac? Hell to the naw, lol.
wtf yo's mom
12-12-07, 08:44 PM
Seriously? He had some witty punchlines, was good a storytelling, but nothing compared to a lot of rappers out there during his time. Why is he considered a g.o.a.t? At least pac had a assortment of topics, all biggie talked about was bytches, guns and drugs, and was not even that clever about it. Can someone please enlighten me as to why he is considered a goat?
lol at the thread title and then you saying pac was better. what the fukk was so special about pac as a lyricist ??
King Joe
12-12-07, 08:54 PM
what he did off the top of his head, rappers today cant even do writing it down
LukeCage888
12-12-07, 10:00 PM
I've been saying this for years. Biggie is overrated as fukk. He was good, but not worthy of any discussion of all time greats, imo. He's on the same level as Beanie Sigel, Obie Trice, and Lil Wayne.
Kingest Kong
12-12-07, 10:07 PM
He was the complete MC. Thats why.
Sunzoo aka LC
12-12-07, 10:08 PM
lyrically, he was good..at times he was kind of ABC'ish, which is why i say that jay was a better LYRICIST even back then when they were both around...where biggie seperated himself from the pack was in his DELIVERY, you simply COULD NOT forget that powerful of a voice, especially saying some of the craziest sh1t you ever heard of at times
he was no slouch lyrically, but i dont even think he's top 10 lyrically, his subject matter was kind of limited, but nonetheless he was special...one of the best to ever grab a mic even with his flaws/involuntary short comings, but even kurupt > biggie lyrically in that time frame if you ask me
killahresh
12-12-07, 10:10 PM
Oh I, thought he was wack; oh come come now
Why y'all so dumb now - hunt me or be hunted
I got three hundred and fifty-seven ways
to simmer sautee, I'm the winner all day
Lights get dimmer down Biggie's hallway
My forte causes caucausians to say
He sounds demented, car weed scented
If I said it, I meant it
Bite my tongue for no-one
Call me evil, or unbelievable
OMG
Sunzoo aka LC
12-12-07, 10:10 PM
I've been saying this for years. Biggie is overrated as fukk. He was good, but not worthy of any discussion of all time greats, imo. He's on the same level as Beanie Sigel, Obie Trice, and Lil Wayne.
come on man...i love trice and seig, but even with those two cats, you are fuccking REACCCCCCCCCCCHING, especially with wayne...how in the hell, who in the hell dropped you on your head when you were a baby? you should sue
killahresh
12-12-07, 10:12 PM
I've been saying this for years. Biggie is overrated as fukk. He was good, but not worthy of any discussion of all time greats, imo. He's on the same level as Beanie Sigel, Obie Trice, and Lil Wayne.
are you kidding me?
LukeCage888
12-12-07, 10:22 PM
come on man...i love trice and seig, but even with those two cats, you are fuccking REACCCCCCCCCCCHING, especially with wayne...how in the hell, who in the hell dropped you on your head when you were a baby? you should sue
Please explain how Biggie is significantly better than Lil Wayne. Both of their strengths are punchlines and wordplay. Neither of them have much depth as artists. Neither of them display much poetic dexterity. They're both basically thug n' drug cipher spitters with crossover appeal. They say a hot line here and there that'll make you go "Oooooooh!" if they were rapping on your couch, but they don't give you much more than that.
And please don't get into Biggie's supposed great storytelling. His storytelling skills are overrated like a motherfukker. Nas, Ghost, Rae, and Slick Rick shyt on him when it comes to storytelling.
GERMONE
12-12-07, 10:41 PM
Please explain how Biggie is significantly better than Lil Wayne. Both of their strengths are punchlines and wordplay. Neither of them have much depth as artists. Neither of them display much poetic dexterity. They're both basically thug n' drug cipher spitters with crossover appeal. They say a hot line here and there that'll make you go "Oooooooh!" if they were rapping on your couch, but they don't give you much more than that.
And please don't get into Biggie's supposed great storytelling. His storytelling skills are overrated like a motherfukker. Nas, Ghost, Rae, and Slick Rick shyt on him when it comes to storytelling.
biggie did what wayne does a lot better.....
theyre very similar in terms of content, but what seperates them is quality.
Perverted Justice
12-13-07, 01:33 AM
Biggie was kinda like the Bo Jackson of Hip-Hop. A lot of his props come from what natural ability, high-profile marketing, and what could have been.
Biggie is regarded as the greatest, why? Because New York could sell records after him. If it wasn't for him and Puff, then Death Row and Ice Cube and them would've continued to go multi-platinum, while New York was doing Ill Al Skratch numbers. Da Brat sold more records than any New York rapper other than Biggie in '94. Think about it.
Mandizi
12-13-07, 01:37 AM
he was a good lyricist, great storyteller, witty....but hes not close to nas lyrically yet clowns call big the best lyricist ever
hes one of the best ever, 2 classics in 2 attempts. jay-z's daddy
Good lyricist, Great flow (one of the best), great delivery.
JRS_One
12-13-07, 07:43 AM
Say Lil Wayne said a line like:
"Your reign on top was short like leprechauns"
You would get a whole load off people on here completely sh*tting on it, making fun off it, etc.
But people think thats a classic biggie line.
*I do not like wayne in any shape or form, and i like BIG, im just playing Devils Advocate*
Say Lil Wayne said a line like:
"Your reign on top was short like leprechauns"
You would get a whole load off people on here completely sh*tting on it, making fun off it, etc.
But people think thats a classic biggie line.
*I do not like wayne in any shape or form, and i like BIG, im just playing Devils Advocate*
I don't see what is so special about that line too and agree with you wholeheartedly. I personally felt that 'reasonable doubt' was stronger than most of biggie's material aside from a lotof his tracks from ready to die. Any cd that came from biggie after his debut just seemed like nothing spectacular to me.
As to the dude who mentioned 2pac, well pac is no great lyricist either as an emcee, but he compensates for it with his passion and variety of topics, I could find a pac song for any mood I am feeling at any time of the month, and pac also was successful commercially. A lot of nY rappers had great commercial appeal but were also very skilled in a specific area, as many mentioned a lot of the lyricists were better than biggie. But to say biggie had a bit of everything just doesn't cut it as a legend, his flow was amazing but that's about it, he had a lot of other very good talents, but they fell short of amazing.
Biggie was kinda like the Bo Jackson of Hip-Hop. A lot of his props come from what natural ability, high-profile marketing, and what could have been.
Biggie is regarded as the greatest, why? Because New York could sell records after him. If it wasn't for him and Puff, then Death Row and Ice Cube and them would've continued to go multi-platinum, while New York was doing Ill Al Skratch numbers. Da Brat sold more records than any New York rapper other than Biggie in '94. Think about it.
you make some solid points
Sunzoo aka LC
12-13-07, 01:33 PM
I don't see what is so special about that line too and agree with you wholeheartedly. I personally felt that 'reasonable doubt' was stronger than most of biggie's material aside from a lotof his tracks from ready to die. Any cd that came from biggie after his debut just seemed like nothing spectacular to me.
As to the dude who mentioned 2pac, well pac is no great lyricist either as an emcee, but he compensates for it with his passion and variety of topics, I could find a pac song for any mood I am feeling at any time of the month, and pac also was successful commercially. A lot of nY rappers had great commercial appeal but were also very skilled in a specific area, as many mentioned a lot of the lyricists were better than biggie. But to say biggie had a bit of everything just doesn't cut it as a legend, his flow was amazing but that's about it, he had a lot of other very good talents, but they fell short of amazing.
pac was a great lyricist, complicated rhyme schemes and metaphors dont make you a great lyricist...do you agree that 2pac is one of the, if not the greatest "song writer" in hip hop, let alone of any genre? i mean you obviously said you can find a song for any mood your in of his...well the foundation to being a lyricist is what? song writing...in that respect, he's a great lyricist, just not the best, for me as a PURE lyricist, he barely misses the top 10 in favor of more technically inclined cats (jay, nas, gza, canibus), but that does not mean he wasnt a great penman just because he didnt concentrate on what this generation deems as "lyricism
by todays definition, people would be saying wayne is a better lyricist than 2pac because of lyrics like "i'm on like the TV", our whole view of lyricism has really been skewed by the "mixtape" period in rap where people get a quick fix of jokes and puns that add up to absolutely nothing, smokey robinson, lyrically is hotter than 90% of the rap populace
LukeCage888
12-13-07, 07:39 PM
Biggie is regarded as the greatest, why? Because New York could sell records after him. If it wasn't for him and Puff, then Death Row and Ice Cube and them would've continued to go multi-platinum, while New York was doing Ill Al Skratch numbers. Da Brat sold more records than any New York rapper other than Biggie in '94. Think about it.
This is silly. I don't know why rap fans are so stuck on annoying habit of pretending correlation = causation. Death Row and Ice Cube wouldn't have continued to go multi-platinum. Their run was over, just like a whole bunch of other acts. NY would've sold records irregardless of Biggie. Jay-Z, Nas, Busta, Wu, etc. would've still went platinum. It was their time. Stop mistaking correlation for causation. You cats wouldn't last one semester in a science Master's program with this shyt.
Luce Cipher
12-13-07, 08:19 PM
Say Lil Wayne said a line like:
"Your reign on top was short like leprechauns"
You would get a whole load off people on here completely sh*tting on it, making fun off it, etc.
But people think thats a classic biggie line.
*I do not like wayne in any shape or form, and i like BIG, im just playing Devils Advocate*
an no current rapper would have got away with
"The girl looked so good, i sucked on her daddy's ****"
lol.
imagine if wayne said that...that would be a 165 page thread making fun of him right there...
i like big, r.i.p and all that, but lets keep 100, he gets a pass because he died.
danja29
12-15-07, 02:39 AM
This is silly. I don't know why rap fans are so stuck on annoying habit of pretending correlation = causation. Death Row and Ice Cube wouldn't have continued to go multi-platinum. Their run was over, just like a whole bunch of other acts. NY would've sold records irregardless of Biggie. Jay-Z, Nas, Busta, Wu, etc. would've still went platinum. It was their time. Stop mistaking correlation for causation. You cats wouldn't last one semester in a science Master's program with this shyt.
Nah, on some real sh*t- whether people wanna acknowledge it or not, Big showed a LOT of NYers how to stretch their fanbases out. When BIG dropped, most artists on the East were makin' music strictly for East Coast ears. That sh*t was good, but it didn't have the appeal to reach outside of that audience. When he came w/ tracks like 'Juicy' and 'Big Poppa', that was def. not something you were hearing most NY artists doin' at the time. That was seen as more of a Cali thing, but when he did that I think it put the battery in niqqas' backs cause they aw that you could do some laid-back sh*t and still keep in NY. Next thing you know- Fat Joe comes out samplin' "Sexual Healing", AZ drops "Sugar Hill", Nas comes back w/ the Trackmasters, some of everybody had their 80s R&B-sampled single... as opposed to what they were doin' before that.
Swagger
12-15-07, 10:59 AM
biggie smalls is the illest
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