The East Coast sold out hiphop by going "gangsta"

[The Catalyst]

Now I'm from the East Coast, love east coast hiphop and all that stuff but the real is the real. Instead of reacting to the gangsta rap movement like Jeru did, the east chose to follow behind. Boot Camp Clique, Wu, Mobb Deep, etc. etc. It killed the creativity in east coast hiphop and by doing so, killed hiphop as a whole eventually.

Gone were the days of DIVERSE acts in hiphop. Rakim was nothing like EPMD who was nothing like Public Enemy who was nothing like Kwame, etc. etc. and NONE of those acts were on the "hard" "gangsta" tip.

Instead of preserving the diversity of hiphop, the east coast copied NWA like some cowardly bytches and rap was never the same...............

[Regulate94]

ha...never thought of it this way


dudes gotta point

[Ron O'Neil]

i dont think gangsta rap killed the creativity. i think it was all the bling bling and i got more money than this guy rap that killed it.

[hypestyle]

hmm.. is it crying over spilt milk?

[Kingofkings]

You do know that Nwa was making gangsta rap the first and that eazy -e is called The god father of gangster rap?

[Nino...J-You-Ice...]

East coast started gangsta rap ni99a

So i guess hiphop sold out from the get go

[The Catalyst]

You do know that Nwa was making gangsta rap the first and that eazy -e is called The god father of gangster rap?

*sigh*

Did you read my post? The West Coast was what glamorized and popularized gangsta rap. There were acts here and there on the east coast that were doing it, but they didn't get anywhere near the popularity of NWA, Ice T, etc. and were overshadowed by the NON gangsta hiphop acts.

Once NWA blew up, that all changed. The east coast copied the west coast "hard" "gangsta" style instead of sticking to the way it was, like some cowardly bytches.

Only one who had balls to speak against it was Jeru.

Like I said, I love the east coast but the truth is the truth.

[midwest chevy boy]

East coast started gangsta rap ni99a

So i guess hiphop sold out from the get go
Even if that were true, the West coast perfected it and sonned a whole coast w/ it.

[Mowgli]

Your wrong. Drug dealers killed hiphop. Once dealers got in the indsutry artists who were affiliated, sponsored or cut from the same cloth as them became the new pioneers. These people in turn ruined hiphop. Blame the dope game.

[The Catalyst]

East coast started gangsta rap ni99a

So i guess hiphop sold out from the get go

See my post above.

Man, I hate when people that don't know the history of hiphop speak on it like they do. East coast "gangsta" hiphop did not come anywhere near the prominence of the west coast version and it wasn't until NWA blew up that the entire east coast switched up it's whole shyt.

either learn the history or shut the fukk up because you don't know it. Anyone else spytting bullshyt in this thread will be ignored.

[Nino...J-You-Ice...]

Even if that were true, the West coast perfected it and sonned a whole coast w/ it.
Who is the best w/c gangsta rapper ?

[jayshiggs]

Your wrong. Drug dealers killed hiphop. Once dealers got in the indsutry artists who were affiliated, sponsored or cut from the same cloth as them became the new pioneers. These people in turn ruined hiphop. Blame the dope game.

I think this is closer to the truth. I would say actually people faking like they are real criminals is what killed it. If drug dealing is/was your reality I don't mind you speaking on it but the fake shyt for record sales really has no redeeming value.
But this is America and you know violence sells so it was kinda inevitable for Hip Hop to fall victim the bigger it got commercially.

[Nino...J-You-Ice...]

See my post above.
Man, I hate when people that don't know the history of hiphop speak on it like they do. East coast "gangsta" hiphop did not come anywhere near the prominence of the west coast version and it wasn't until NWA blew up that the entire east coast switched up it's whole shyt.
either learn the history or shut the fukk up because you don't know it. Anyone else spytting bullshyt in this thread will be ignored.
:laugh::gag:

NWA...They were just middle class ni99as who came with the shock factor:yes:
There were atleast 7 rappers from the east more gangsta then them on record at that time...Dre didnt come up with NWA till he got exiled from the disco community and his ears drifted 2 the east:yes:

[The Catalyst]

:laugh::gag:

NWA...They were just middle class ni99as who came with the shock factor:yes:
There were atleast 7 rappers from the east more gangsta then them on record at that time...Dre didnt come up with NWA till he got exiled from the disco community and his ears drifted 2 the east:yes:



Not responding to people who don't have any idea what they're talking about.

[The Catalyst]

I think this is closer to the truth. I would say actually people faking like they are real criminals is what killed it. If drug dealing is/was your reality I don't mind you speaking on it but the fake shyt for record sales really has no redeeming value.
But this is America and you know violence sells so it was kinda inevitable for Hip Hop to fall victim the bigger it got commercially.

And how did that happen? I mean, there wasn't a lot of drug dealing in hiphop with EPMD, Rakim, Run DMC, Big Daddy Kane, Public Enemy, etc. etc.

Once AGAIN, when NWA blew the east coast response wasn't the Jeru approach, it was the majority of it's acts turning to crime rhyme (instead of just the odd act here and there like Schooly D).

And when that happened, yes a larger criminal element came into it. But as far as the music itself changing, that was directly because of the prominence of West Coast "Gangsta" rap.

The east coast didn't stay true to it's original identity. It became "west coast east". And the music suffered and is still suffering today.

[Nino...J-You-Ice...]

Not responding to people who don't have any idea what they're talking about.
Then leave the thread lame...How can the east of copied NWA when Dre didnt do hiphop till he fell in love with Schoolly D

:laugh:

I swear yal west ni99as stay bummy reachin for points:laugh: Face it, your coast is inferior.

[jayshiggs]

And how did that happen? I mean, there wasn't a lot of drug dealing in hiphop with EPMD, Rakim, Run DMC, Big Daddy Kane, Public Enemy, etc. etc.
Once AGAIN, when NWA blew the east coast response wasn't the Jeru approach, it was the majority of it's acts turning to crime rhyme (instead of just the odd act here and there like Schooly D).
And when that happened, yes a larger criminal element came into it. But as far as the music itself changing, that was directly because of the prominence of West Coast "Gangsta" rap.
The east coast didn't stay true to it's original identity. It became "west coast east". And the music suffered and is still suffering today.

By yer recanting of the evidence it is the West Coast's fault IMO. Besides Eazy E and Ice T all those west coast cats were lying about their G. And that is what killed Hip hop IMO; gangsta shyt just for the sake of entertainment not speaking on any realities. Just cause they did it first and blew up commercially with it does not excuse them.

[The Catalyst]

By yer recanting of the evidence it is the West Coast's fault IMO. Besides Eazy E and Ice T all those west coast cats were lying about their G. And that is what killed Hip hop IMO; gangsta shyt just for the sake of entertainment not speaking on any realities. Just cause they did it first and blew up commercially with it does not excuse them.

Oh, don't get me wrong, NWA and such were the "catalyst" for gangsta rap blowing up HOWEVER the east could have gone two ways:

A. Stayed true to themselves and responded like Jeru and kept doing their own thing.

B. Latch on to the gangsta trend and switch up their whole style.

They chose B.

[The Catalyst]

Then leave the thread lame...How can the east of copied NWA when Dre didnt do hiphop till he fell in love with Schoolly D
:laugh:
I swear yal west ni99as stay bummy reachin for points:laugh: Face it, your coast is inferior.

I never said Schooly D didn't exist. You lack reading comprehension as well as historical knowledge. I can't have a discussion with someone as wilfully ignorant and misinformed as you are so I'm not going to bother.

[danja29]

They didn't sell hip-hop out... all they did was come with some street sh*t from the East Coast perspective.

It's not like the entire east went gangsta, so that defeats what you're saying. You had your Mobb Deeps, but you also still had A Tribe Called Quest. You had Black Moon, and you also had Leaders Of The New School. Then you had artists who were kinda in the middle like GangStarr, who moreso had songs where Guru spoke on street stuff but didn't usually make himself out to be that guy.

If you wanna speak about the era before that, KRS made certain songs that would be considered "gangsta" before that term came about- "listen to my 9 millimeter go BANG!", "I don't battle with rhymes, I battle with guns", "if I really wanna battle I will pull out a 9". Kool G Rap definitely rapped about stuff that most East Coast artists weren't talkin' about, i.e. "Road To The Riches". EPMD used to throw gun references in their music dating back to their first album. That sh*t didn't just come along in the '90s.

How can you say the East Coast artists who made street sh*t weren't "staying true to themselves"? Maybe all of 'em didn't want to do what Jeru did... if that's what he felt about it, then that's what he felt. If they followed what he did, or what others were doing in response to the gangsta sh*t, THAT wouldn't have been "true to themselves", that woulda been true to what the "purists" wanted them to do.

[jayshiggs]

Oh, don't get me wrong, NWA and such were the "catalyst" for gangsta rap blowing up HOWEVER the east could have gone two ways:
A. Stayed true to themselves and responded like Jeru and kept doing their own thing.
B. Latch on to the gangsta trend and switch up their whole style.
They chose B.

They? you act like people from the same region all think a like and do alike. We don't have meetings on our course of actions. A lot of people from all over the country did it. Why just hold the east responsible? Like you said Jeru didn't and where's he from?

[Nino...J-You-Ice...]

I never said Schooly D didn't exist. You lack reading comprehension as well as historical knowledge. I can't have a discussion with someone as wilfully ignorant and misinformed as you are so I'm not going to bother.
You said that already b...Instead of catchin titty attacks maybe you should follow thru ur statments and play hush.:yes:

[The Catalyst]

They? you act like people from the same region all think a like and do alike. We don't have meetings on our course of actions. A lot of people from all over the country did it. Why just hold the east responsible? Like you said Jeru didn't and where's he from?

I'm talking about the MAJORITY. I mean come on. the east went from having a handful of gangsta acts (most of which were not very prominent) to most of it's acts on some form of it.

Biggie
Nas (wasn't exactly gangsta but promoted a lot of gangsta themes such as gunplay, "bytches and hoes", crime, etc.)
Jay-Z
Wu Tang
Black Moon
Mobb Deep
Onyx

and on and on. What, magically after NWA blew up all these acts just HAPPENED to come along at around the same time?

And I'm holding the east responsible because the east (NY specifically) was the "Mecca" of hiphop. Instead of the majority of acts saying fukk the gangsta shyt, they were only too eager to hop on the bandwagon.

Damn shame.

[The Catalyst]

They didn't sell hip-hop out... all they did was come with some street sh*t from the East Coast perspective.

Magically after NWA blew up. Where were all of them before that?

It's not like the entire east went gangsta, so that defeats what you're saying. You had your Mobb Deeps, but you also still had A Tribe Called Quest. You had Black Moon, and you also had Leaders Of The New School. Then you had artists who were kinda in the middle like GangStarr, who moreso had songs where Guru spoke on street stuff but didn't usually make himself out to be that guy.

You went from a handful of "gangsta" acts on the east to it becoming the dominant factor in the music AND those acts becoming the most prominent. I never said that there were NO non gangsta acts left, but compared to what it was before? Come on now, no comparison.


If you wanna speak about the era before that, KRS made certain songs that would be considered "gangsta" before that term came about- "listen to my 9 millimeter go BANG!", "I don't battle with rhymes, I battle with guns", "if I really wanna battle I will pull out a 9". Kool G Rap definitely rapped about stuff that most East Coast artists weren't talkin' about, i.e. "Road To The Riches". EPMD used to throw gun references in their music dating back to their first album. That sh*t didn't just come along in the '90s.

Once again READING COMPREHENSION. It's a vital tool in having discussions. I never said gangsta style rap didn't exist on the East Coast before then. But it did NOT have anywhere near the prominence/influence that it had post NWA. that's not an opinion, it's a FACT.

How can you say the East Coast artists who made street sh*t weren't "staying true to themselves"? Maybe all of 'em didn't want to do what Jeru did... if that's what he felt about it, then that's what he felt. If they followed what he did, or what others were doing in response to the gangsta sh*t, THAT wouldn't have been "true to themselves", that woulda been true to what the "purists" wanted them to do

You can go ahead and think that magically the east coast just all turned gangster right after NWA blew up after being on some Big Daddy Kane, EPMD, LL Cool J, Run DMC, Public Enemy, Dana Dane, and on and on if you want to, but I prefer to deal with REALITY.

[danja29]

I'm talking about the MAJORITY. I mean come on. the east went from having a handful of gangsta acts (most of which were not very prominent) to most of it's acts on some form of it.
Biggie
Nas (wasn't exactly gangsta but promoted a lot of gangsta themes such as gunplay, "bytches and hoes", crime, etc.)
Jay-Z
Wu Tang
Black Moon
Mobb Deep
Onyx
and on and on. What, magically after NWA blew up all these acts just HAPPENED to come along at around the same time?
And I'm holding the east responsible because the east (NY specifically) was the "Mecca" of hiphop. Instead of the majority of acts saying fukk the gangsta shyt, they were only too eager to hop on the bandwagon.
Damn shame.

The way you're sayin' it is like because everybody on the East didn't see fit to follow what Public Enemy or Kane did YEARS before, they were jumping on the bandwagon. That's where I don't agree. That's like saying that because the artists of the late-80s didn't wanna do what the ones from the early-80s were doing, they weren't being "true". It's not being "true" when you follow another man's path and do sh*t because that's what you're so-called supposed to do. If they chose to make the music they made, then that's what they did. Maybe Nas didn't wanna come out sounding like Biz Markie, maybe Wu-Tang didn't wanna come out doing what De La Soul did.

[The Catalyst]

The way you're sayin' it is like because everybody on the East didn't see fit to follow what Public Enemy or Kane did YEARS before, they were jumping on the bandwagon. That's where I don't agree. That's like saying that because the artists of the late-80s didn't wanna do what the ones from the early-80s were doing, they weren't being "true". It's not being "true" when you follow another man's path and do sh*t because that's what you're so-called supposed to do. If they chose to make the music they made, then that's what they did. Maybe Nas didn't wanna come out sounding like Biz Markie, maybe Wu-Tang didn't wanna come out doing what De La Soul did.

See my response to you above.

You can think it's coincidence if you'd like, but I call that living in denial.

[westkoast2k2]

Then leave the thread lame...How can the east of copied NWA when Dre didnt do hiphop till he fell in love with Schoolly D
:laugh:
I swear yal west ni99as stay bummy reachin for points:laugh: Face it, your coast is inferior.

you have no idea what you are talking about....you might be one of the corniest and uninformed posters on this site. Dre was a DJ long before Schooly D came around and he was doing similar music to Bambaata and em. It was actually Ice T you are referring to you idiot :laugh:

NYC certainly did jump on the gangsta rap bandwagon. That is not debatable. However all the people you named did 'gangsta' type music but it was mad creative. The real problem was the money coming in and how it made everyone try to do the same thing so they could get it.
Not even everyone on the westcoast was doing gangsta rap and not everyone on the westcoast still does gangsta rap. It's just people are so lazy to look for different kinds of music they just assume everyone is a gangsta rapper. Ever since **** The Police came out you can name HUNDREDS of MCs on both coasts who were not gangsta rappers putting out great music.

[jayshiggs]

I'm talking about the MAJORITY. I mean come on. the east went from having a handful of gangsta acts (most of which were not very prominent) to most of it's acts on some form of it.
Biggie
Nas (wasn't exactly gangsta but promoted a lot of gangsta themes such as gunplay, "bytches and hoes", crime, etc.)
Jay-Z
Wu Tang
Black Moon
Mobb Deep
Onyx
and on and on. What, magically after NWA blew up all these acts just HAPPENED to come along at around the same time?
And I'm holding the east responsible because the east (NY specifically) was the "Mecca" of hiphop. Instead of the majority of acts saying fukk the gangsta shyt, they were only too eager to hop on the bandwagon.
Damn shame.

Who blew up? Not there fault why again? Look at Dre acting like he was going all straight and grown man w/ the Aftermath shyt and as soon as the shyt was not sellign eh went back to the gangsta shyt. Weak. A lot of people fell victim. To blanket the east coast for yer own convenience is not accurate. Just cause you start something doesn't mean all of a sudden yer morals are better.
And really it wasn't any majority but the ones who did keep it real stopped selling records and fell of yer radar.

[danja29]

Here's my point: regardless of what happened, or what went down in the '90s... that was the change that was made. Whether it was them following what NWA did, or maybe being inspired to create their own version of that lane, is just up to speculation. Perhaps that was the direction the East was gonna go in anyway with the newer artists. These people you're naming were people who came out years after NWA came out. If the East just instantly jumped on Cali's d!ck like you're tryin' to say they did, then it woulda happened in '89-'90, not '93-'94.

I agree that after NWA, there was a lot more cursing, more violence, more street sh*t on the East, but I think both coast bounced ideas off of eachother. EPMD were sampling Roger Troutman's sh*t before Cali was... and Cali was talkin' about gangsta sh*t more than NY was. That doesn't mean Nas, Wu, Mobb, Black Moon, etc. were d!ckridin' NWA, maybe they were inspired by Kool G Rap's sh*t (and you know for a fact Nas was).

It has nothing to do with "dealing in reality" or "living in denial" or any of that bullsh*t, it's just about knowing, experiencing, and acceptiong what happened. A change was made in the early 90s, just like there was a change in the LATE '80s, just like there was a change in the MID-80s. If you recall, or even have common sense, hip-hop wasn't always about PE and Rakim type sh*t before they came out either. So you criticizing the niqqas that came out in the early '90s is like me saying "how you gonna be on some Run-DMC and Whodini sh*t, then turn into Public Enemy and Rakim?"

[The Catalyst]

Who blew up? Not there fault why again? Look at Dre acting like he was going all straight and grown man w/ the Aftermath shyt and as soon as the shyt was not sellign eh went back to the gangsta shyt. Weak. A lot of people fell victim. To blanket the east coast for yer own convenience is not accurate. Just cause you start something doesn't mean all of a sudden yer morals are better.
And really it wasn't any majority but the ones who did keep it real stopped selling records and fell of yer radar.

Man, you're not even addressing the points I'm making I guess because you want to live in denial about it or something.

I love Wu Tang. I love love love Kool G Rap. I didn't say that there weren't some good acts. But in my opinion, instead of having DIVERSE groups like they did before De La, Dana Dane, Rakim, etc. all were DIFFERENT the majority of acts turned to the gangsta shyt and it helped to kill creativity. A lot of acts felt like they couldn't come out on anything other than "hard" shyt, unlike before where a black man could represent a lot of different aspects.

I honestly don't understand how you can't see this shyt.

[Insane Sony]

*sigh*
Only one who had balls to speak against it was Jeru.
Like I said, I love the east coast but the truth is the truth.
u mean jarule
spellcheck buddy..

[The Catalyst]

Here's my point: regardless of what happened, or what went down in the '90s... that was the change that was made. Whether it was them following what NWA did, or maybe being inspired to create their own version of that lane, is just up to speculation. Perhaps that was the direction the East was gonna go in anyway with the newer artists. These people you're naming were people who came out years after NWA came out. If the East just instantly jumped on Cali's d!ck like you're tryin' to say they did, then it woulda happened in '89-'90, not '93-'94.
I agree that after NWA, there was a lot more cursing, more violence, more street sh*t on the East, but I think both coast bounced ideas off of eachother. EPMD were sampling Roger Troutman's sh*t before Cali was... and Cali was talkin' about gangsta sh*t more than NY was. That doesn't mean Nas, Wu, Mobb, Black Moon, etc. were d!ckridin' NWA, maybe they were inspired by Kool G Rap's sh*t (and you know for a fact Nas was).
It has nothing to do with "dealing in reality" or "living in denial" or any of that bullsh*t, it's just about knowing, experiencing, and acceptiong what happened. A change was made in the early 90s, just like there was a change in the LATE '80s, just like there was a change in the MID-80s.

Tunnel Vision? Man, I lived (and still live) in NYC during those times. I saw what was going on around me. I'm speaking from my own personal experiences of beign here and seeing the change and what happened to the music.

The bottom line is, in my opinion, if you think east coast hiphop went from the diversity it had to the majority of it being some form of crime rhyme magically after NWA blew up, YOU are the one with tunnel vision, not me.

[Mowgli]

Those glory days are never comin back. It had to much potential to be revolutionary. On top of the fact back in the day all rappers were FUKKIN BROKE!!!! Its never gonna change.

[Bonecatron]

the statement is an oversimplification, as others have mentioned G Rap, Schooly D, Just Ice etc were all 'gangsta'

but there is a grain of truth in this for me - older heads will remember a time when stuff like Pete Rock & CL, Diamond D, Black Sheep etc was called hardcore hiphop, for the beats more than the content - then there came a point where you were either gangster or soft with nothing in between

rappers need to get off that, you can be real without having to be 'hard'

[The Catalyst]

the statement is an oversimplification, as others have mentioned G Rap, Schooly D, Just Ice etc were all 'gangsta'
but there is a grain of truth in this for me - older heads will remember a time when stuff like Pete Rock & CL, Diamond D, Black Sheep etc was called hardcore hiphop, for the beats more than the content - then there came a point where you were either gangster or soft with nothing in between
rappers need to get off that, you can be real without having to be 'hard'

I addressed this.

[jayshiggs]

Man, you're not even addressing the points I'm making I guess because you want to live in denial about it or something.
I love Wu Tang. I love love love Kool G Rap. I didn't say that there weren't some good acts. But in my opinion, instead of having DIVERSE groups like they did before De La, Dana Dane, Rakim, etc. all were DIFFERENT the majority of acts turned to the gangsta shyt and it helped to kill creativity. A lot of acts felt like they couldn't come out on anything other than "hard" shyt, unlike before where a black man could represent a lot of different aspects.
I honestly don't understand how you can't see this shyt.

What I'm saying is yer being inaccurate. People from all over turned to the gangsa shyt. And the start of it was the West on a commercial scale, they should really be held responsible really. But no, yer on some, 'We started it therefore we should havwe known better.' I just disageree.

[jayshiggs]

the statement is an oversimplification, as others have mentioned G Rap, Schooly D, Just Ice etc were all 'gangsta'
but there is a grain of truth in this for me - older heads will remember a time when stuff like Pete Rock & CL, Diamond D, Black Sheep etc was called hardcore hiphop, for the beats more than the content - then there came a point where you were either gangster or soft with nothing in between
rappers need to get off that, you can be real without having to be 'hard'

This guy is acting like it only happened on the east coast when the same thing was going on out west. Remember how Ice Cube got all conscious, but as soon as Lethal Injection didn't do the numbers he thought it would do he went BACK to doing gangsta shyt.
Address that catalyst instead of blaming one region.

[danja29]

If you recall, hip-hop wasn't always about PE and Rakim type sh*t before they came out either. So you criticizing the niqqas that came out in the early '90s is like me saying "how you gonna be on some Run-DMC and Whodini sh*t, then turn into Public Enemy and Rakim?"[/B]

I quoted that just in case you didn't see it.

Now... ALL I'm saying is... PERHAPS, PERHAPS Jeru chose to speak against the gangsta sh*t because HE wanted to. That has NOTHING to do with Nas, Mobb, Onyx, or whoever... maybe THEY didn't have a problem with it. It's like you're tryin' to say he was right and they were wrong or some sh*t. Jeru had a problem with it, others didn't, simple as that.

Most of the time, artists who come later down the line were inspired somehow by artists who came before them. You're not gonna tell me Public Enemy, Rakim, Kane, EPMD, or whoever just pulled their sh*t out the sky. Likely, they were inspired by the artists before them (not to mention others who were out at the time) and put their own spin on things. So conversly, you have artists of the early-to-mid-90s being inspired by those who were out before them- not only including Rakim, Kool G Rap, KRS, etc... but also some of the stuff NWA or even The Geto Boys were doing. Why is this concept seemingly hard for you to grasp?

[The Catalyst]

This guy is acting like it only happened on the east coast when the same thing was going on out west. Remember how Ice Cube got all conscious, but as soon as Lethal Injection didn't do the numbers he thought it would do he went BACK to doing gangsta shyt.
Address that catalyst instead of blaming one region.

Who started hiphop?
What was the most influential region for hiphop?

It was NYC. And instead of NYC standing strong on some "We're going to keep doing our own shyt" they sold out and hopped on the gangsta bandwagon.

Had they the balls to fight it, hiphop history would have changed. Instead, they joined the machine.

Disgust.

[jayshiggs]

Who started hiphop?
What was the most influential region for hiphop?
It was NYC. And instead of NYC standing strong on some "We're going to keep doing our own shyt" they sold out and hopped on the gangsta bandwagon.
Had they the balls to fight it, hiphop history would have changed. Instead, they joined the machine.
Disgust.

Why cause you start something yer supposed to be of higher moral fiber? (still waiting on an answer on this)
You have been saying that the east was following the west w/ the gangsta shyt so it seems 'influence' changes hands. That's from you. lol
Another aspect yer ignoring is that record companies wanted gangsta shyt cause it sold, if you weren't talking that you did not get signed, especially if you were a new act.
Be disgusted then. It's based on bullshyt anyway, but do you.

[The Catalyst]

I quoted that just in case you didn't see it.
Now... ALL I'm saying is... PERHAPS, PERHAPS Jeru chose to speak against the gangsta sh*t because HE wanted to. That has NOTHING to do with Nas, Mobb, Onyx, or whoever... maybe THEY didn't have a problem with it. It's like you're tryin' to say he was right and they were wrong or some sh*t. Jeru had a problem with it, others didn't, simple as that.
Most of the time, artists who come later down the line were inspired somehow by artists who came before them. You're not gonna tell me Public Enemy, Rakim, Kane, EPMD, or whoever just pulled their sh*t out the sky. Likely, they were inspired by the artists before them (not to mention others who were out at the time) and put their own spin on things. So conversly, you have artists of the early-to-mid-90s being inspired by those who were out before them- not only including Rakim, Kool G Rap, KRS, etc... but also some of the stuff NWA or even The Geto Boys were doing. Why is this concept seemingly hard for you to grasp?

We're just going to continue to disagree. No disrespect because at least you are bringing some rational conversation to this debate, but in my opinion you just keep missing the point. I'm going to try it one last time and that will be it.

The difference pre-NWA was that there was DIVERSITY in the acts.

LL Cool J
Run DMC
Dana Dane
Slick Rick
EPMD
Kwame
Kid N Play
Rakim
Big Daddy Kane
De La

and on and on were all DIFFERENT. They had different themes, styles, subject matters, flows, etc. etc. They weren't all some form of the "gangsta". After NWA blew up that all changed and hiphop became grimy and dark and you couldn't smile and you toted guns and you smacked bytches and you shot n!ggas and all the rest of it. Most of the east coast acts were some variation of the SAME THEME.

In my opinion, because NY was the most influential area of hiphip/originators of hiphip, their capitulation to this mentality killed the innovation of the music overall. (not that there weren't talented "hardcore" acts but in general).

Again, disagree if you want but that's what happened.

[The Catalyst]

Why cause you start something yer supposed to be of higher moral fiber? (still waiting on an answer on this)
You have been saying that the east was following the west w/ the gangsta shyt so it seems 'influence' changes hands. That's from you. lol
Another aspect yer ignoring is that record companies wanted gangsta shyt cause it sold, if you weren't talking that you did not get signed, especially if you were a new act.
Be disgusted then. It's based on bullshyt anyway, But do you.

Don't get me wrong, firebomb the record companies, BET, MTV and all the rest of them for selling genocide as entertainment. But the main onous has to go onto the acts themselves for being only too eager to contribute to it.

[jayshiggs]

Don't get me wrong, firebomb the record companies, BET, MTV and all the rest of them for selling genocide as entertainment. But the main onous has to go onto the acts themselves for being only too eager to contribute to it.
$ wins over morals most of the time that's why a lot of people from everywhere started rhyming like record companies wanted them to. It is still happening. Blaming one particular group is misguided.

[The Catalyst]

$ wins over morals most of the time that's why a lot of people from everywhere started rhyming like record companies wanted them to. It is still happening. Blaming one particular group is misguided.

I'm blaming the group that was responsible for the emergence and prominence of hiphop in general. Who gives a fukk what Houston, Chicago, etc. were doing at that time? Did they have the influence and prominence of NYC? Come on now, be realistic. The east coast cowardly capitulated to the gangsta music and in the long run that killed the music.

Do you think I LIKE that it happened that way? Hell no. But I see it for what it was.

By the way, it's ironic that danja agrees with you when he has a Flave avatar. I can almost guarantee that Chuck would see it the same way.

[danja29]

Here's where I'll agree- the late-'80s was probably THE most diverse hip-hop has ever been.

At the same time, I wouldn't say the entire East in the early-mid '90s wasn't diverse either. I can't listen to Nas and hear Onyx. I can't listen to Redman and hear Mobb Deep. I can't listen to Biggie and hear Quest. I def. know what you're sayin' in that every other group on the East was comin' out at one point with hoodies and Timbs, smokin' blunts and bein' the hardest niqqas on the block, I get that.

But again, anything influential in hip-hop is gonna spread to other artists. It's the same way what PE were doing spread to numerous others (some of whom were simply riding the wave cause it was popular at the time). It's the same way Run-DMC had everybody rhyming loud over big drum machine beats for three to four years. So naturally, when all these artists of the late-80s come out, NWA being one of them, that influence was bound to trickle down somehow. Whereas De La Soul trickled down to some on the East as well as on the West, NWA trickled down to others on the West as well as the East.

I remember NWA being VERY controversial for that time, because no one had cursed on records as much as they did, no one said things like "fukk the police" in records and things like that. When it's something that crazy, people are gonna pick up on it. Look at Kool G Rap's first two albums- the first one has SOME street sh*t on it and very little cursing... next album, he's cursing more on ONE song than he did the whole first album. NWA def. had an influence on that... but at the same time, G Rap HIMSELF had an influence on artists from the East too.

It's not that that I totally disagree w/ what you're sayin', I just don't think it's as extreme as saying the East Coast "sold out" because they drew inspiration from something a group outside of NY did.

[jayshiggs]

I'm blaming the group that was responsible for the emergence and prominence of hiphop in general. Who gives a fukk what Houston, Chicago, etc. were doing at that time? Did they have the influence and prominence of NYC? Come on now, be realistic. The east coast cowardly capitulated to the gangsta music and in the long run that killed the music.
Do you think I LIKE that it happened that way? Hell no. But I see it for what it was.
By the way, it's ironic that danja agrees with you when he has a Flave avatar. I can almost guarantee that Chuck would see it the same way.

See, Bam, Herc and Flash started Hip Hop not Nas, Wu-Tang and Fat Joe. They have no connection to one another other than being from the same city. But you act like they are all the same guy. Why?
This isn't about like or dislike this is about recanting what happened and describing it as accurately as possible.
Yer wrong in stating the east killed Hip hop all regions played a part.
You cannot guaruntee anythign Chuck would say really. Accuracy is not yer strong point. lol

[The Catalyst]

Here's where I'll agree- the late-'80s was probably THE most diverse hip-hop has ever been.
At the same time, I wouldn't say the entire East in the early-mid '90s wasn't diverse either. I can't listen to Nas and hear Onyx. I can't listen to Redman and hear Mobb Deep. I can't listen to Biggie and hear Quest. I def. know what you're sayin' in that every other group on the East was comin' out at one point with hoodies and Timbs, smokin' blunts and bein' the hardest niqqas on the block, I get that.
But again, anything influential in hip-hop is gonna spread to other artists. It's the same way what PE were doing spread to numerous others (some of whom were simply riding the wave cause it was popular at the time). It's the same way Run-DMC had everybody rhyming loud over big drum machine beats for three to four years. So naturally, when all these artists of the late-80s come out, NWA being one of them, that influence was bound to trickle down somehow. Whereas De La Soul trickled down to some on the East as well as on the West, NWA trickled down to others on the West as well as the East.
I remember NWA being VERY controversial for that time, because no one had cursed on records as much as they did, no one said things like "fukk the police" in records and things like that. When it's something that crazy, people are gonna pick up on it. Look at Kool G Rap's first two albums- the first one has SOME street sh*t on it and very little cursing... next album, he's cursing more on ONE song than he did the whole first album. NWA def. had an influence on that... but at the same time, G Rap HIMSELF had an influence on artists from the East too.
It's not that that I totally disagree w/ what you're sayin', I just don't think it's as extreme as saying the East Coast "sold out" because they drew inspiration from something a group outside of NY did.

OK, that's cool. I'm old enough to remember the days pre- "gangsta era" and though people want to tout the mid 90s as being so great, I never agreed. Don't get me wrong, Wu is one of my favorite artists of all times, and there were definite gems in the hardcore acts but I always hated the death of diversity. I guess I had the Jeru mentality. I wish more east coast acts had it.

[The Catalyst]

See, Bam, Herc and Flash started Hip Hop not Nas, Wu-Tang and Fat Joe. They have no connection to one another other than being from the same city. But you act like they are all the same guy. Why?
This isn't about like or dislike this is about recanting what happened and describing it as accurately as possible.
Yer wrong in stating the east killed Hip hop all regions played a part.
You cannot guaruntee anythign Chuck would say really. Accuracy is not yer strong point. lol

I'm not acting like they're all the same guy. I'm acting like after NWA blew up and record companies started seeking that type of act out, NYC was only too happy to comply instead of remaining the innovators they had previously been. The result of all that over gangstarization is still being felt today.

My argument is that if the east coast acts had stayed true to being diverse, and not on gangsta shyt then a lot would be different in hiphop today.

Also, I can guarantee it based on hearing the man speak about hiphop over the years (including recently at a hiphop event here in NYC) and actually owning EVERY PE ALBUM.

Oh, and I think my assessment is quite accurate, while you prefer to believe that a magic fairy came along and suddenly changed east coast hiphop from the way it was to the majority of it being some form of crime rhyme.

[jayshiggs]

I'm not acting like they're all the same guy. I'm acting like after NWA blew up and record companies started seeking that type of act out, NYC was only too happy to comply instead of remaining the innovators they had previously been. The result of all that over gangstarization is still being felt today.
My argument is that if the east coast acts had stayed true to being diverse, and not on gangsta shyt then a lot would be different in hiphop today.
Also, I can guarantee it based on hearing the man speak about hiphop over the years (including recently at a hiphop event here in NYC) and actually owning EVERY PE ALBUM.
Oh, and I think my assessment is quite accurate, while you prefer to believe that a magic fairy came along and suddenly changed east coast hiphop from the way it was to the majority of it being some form of crime rhyme.

Whatever dude. I disagree, yer argument is not at all convincing. Did you get anyone on this site to co-sign? What makes you think yer so accurate? Just cause?

[The Catalyst]

Whatever dude. I disagree, yer argument is not at all convincing. Did you get anyone on this site to co-sign? What makes you think yer so accurate? Just cause?

Why the fukk would I care about people "co-signing"? I'm giving my opinion based on the fact that I've been listening to this music for twenty years,, I was IN New York when all this happened and I know a hell of a lot about hiphip history. Most of the kids on this site think hiphop starts and ends with Tupac, Jay-Z and Biggie. The bottom line is, what I said IS accurate and even danja who disagreed with a lot of what I said had to admit that "the late 80s was the most diverse hiphop has ever been".

Now what do you suppose happened after the late 80s/early 90s that changed all that. Hmmmm.........

I think you're getting your feelings hurt because you think I'm shytting on NYC or something. I will always love NYC hiphop but NYC fukked up by letting Goldbaum define the culture. Instead of standing strong against the gangsta rap onslaught, they joined in. Damn shame too.