SOHH Book Club: Kindred by Octavia Butler [Archive]

Innkyblott

01-12-07, 12:02 PM

Well she tried to wear a dress on time, but she didn't think that the dresses would match what was worn at that time. In her era she probably had alot more pants than dresses and since she didn't know when she'd be "called", she went in whatever she was wearing.
What do you think was the significance of her losing her arm the last trip?

I have a theory, but I don't know how far along everyone is. As well as me losing my old copy and my new one just arriving; I'm reading it again just to be sure.

Flipper_Purify

01-12-07, 02:19 PM

Anyone else thought it was weird she stuck to wearing pants in the past? I guess that's some kind of feminist statement? I dont why she'd want the extra attention, it really seemed to throw people off.
Edana seemed to have some issues with identifying herself as a slave when in the past. She also seemed to resent having a resemblance to--was it Alice or Sarah? Perhaps wearing the pants would help distance herself from Alice or Sarah, which would distance herself from the slaves.

elle simple

01-12-07, 07:48 PM

Well she tried to wear a dress on time, but she didn't think that the dresses would match what was worn at that time. In her era she probably had alot more pants than dresses and since she didn't know when she'd be "called", she went in whatever she was wearing.

yea she was gonna rock a sundress or sum'n lol but I guess I meant, why didnt she try and get a dress while she was in the past? It seems like SOMEONE on the plantation could've lent her one, or, if she's asked Rufus, or when her husband was there, to get her one, no doubt they would of??

Edana seemed to have some issues with identifying herself as a slave when in the past. She also seemed to resent having a resemblance to--was it Alice or Sarah? Perhaps wearing the pants would help distance herself from Alice or Sarah, which would distance herself from the slaves.

OK I see your first point about her wanting to not be too fully identified as a slave, but I did not see her as being resentful about having a resemblace Alice? I thought she was more intrigued by the resemblance? But yea, the distancing... I guess that's it... it just seems so dangerous to draw the extra attention to her.

Now that I think about it, it probably is to emphasize the contrast between her and Alice in a present-meeting-the-past kind of way. hmm. Good insights, you!

What do you think was the significance of her losing her arm the last trip?

...and she starts the novel telling that too. I can only think of obvious interpretations like, "a part of her" is left in the past or that she "gave her left arm" to survive

*thinking, thinking*

What's your take on it?

Flipper_Purify

01-14-07, 03:07 AM

After reading and re-reading the prologue and epilogue, I think that Dana having her arm torn off is a metaphor for being torn between her two "homes." in the opening sentence of the book, she states "I lost an arm on my last trip home" (pg. 9). When she returned to her modern home, she was sorta halfway in the present and halfway in the past, which kinda leaves it up in the air as to where was home.

Innkyblott

01-14-07, 10:18 AM

About the arm,

I think a lot of the book is about us all being connected. An African American woman is sent back in time to save a slave owner. When she killed him, although it was justified and she ended up hurting a part of herself... the part a man from the past had a hold on.

Flipper_Purify

01-14-07, 01:47 PM

What do you think was the reason that the author didn't age Dana during her trips to Rufus?

I felt that this was very strange that Dana had been with Rufus for months but yet back home it was only a few minutes or hours. Also when Kevin got stuck in that period I didn't expect for him to age yet he aged as if he were apart of that time period. So was there some kind of reasoning for aging Kevin and not Dana?
Butler has repeatedly claimed that there is no science in Kindred, just fantasy. However, I think that not having Dana age is the only scientific part of this book. Time travel and relativity slows down time and the aging process. :confused:

Cerebral Knievel

01-14-07, 10:12 PM

Butler has repeatedly claimed that there is no science in Kindred, just fantasy. However, I think that not having Dana age is the only scientific part of this book. Time travel and relativity slows down time and the aging process. :confused:

Yeah..the flow of time and the lines that connect "space" aren't considered to be a linear...this a theme played out in many science fiction and fantasy books and novels.

This IS easily her least scientific book though..even the patternmaster books contained some level of "pseudo-science".

subc

01-15-07, 02:49 PM

my book arrived on Friday and I'm 107 pages in.

7:30femmefatale

01-15-07, 10:14 PM

I too am :confused: This book left a lot of things hanging in the air. Why was she even called to Rufus in the first place? Why Rufus and not Alice, Rufus' mother or father? Oh and just like when Kevin was holding her hand, he traveled with her. But when Rufus was dying, he was on top of her, so why didn't he go back to her time with her? Sure it wouldn't have made sense to take a half dead white man back to her time, but nothing else made sense so why not. *sigh* This book just left me with so many unanswered questions.
i think choosing rufus as the character to whom dana is summoned affords butler more opportunity to examine the core "issues" of the story, and gives the reader some perspectivism when considering the decisions and choices dana has to make - and live with - as the story unfolds.. esp since was called to rufus from an early point in his life where he was a small child, and was still somewhat "innocent" (pre-inevitable corruption by a overtly mean and racist plantation-owning father and a very dominant white/male society)..

i'm gonna put more into this thread tomorrow, or soon. i like books that flex your noggin noodle...concepts are explored, and questions are asked but not necessarily answered in any overt or obvious manner.

midnightSun

01-16-07, 02:47 PM

I read this book this past summer..Can't quite remember all the details right now..I may read it again

elle simple

01-16-07, 10:05 PM

one more thing on the arm... I found this in a scholarly article linked from the Wiki about Kindred... thought it was an interesting take (didnt read the whole essay tho):

"Rufus's grasp on her arm causes her arm to be left behind in the past when she returns to the present during her final trip. One must conclude from this highly symbolic occurrence that leaving the past behind is simply impossible because history has lingering effect on the present and the future. Having endured the psychological mutilation of slavery, she endures physical mutilation as well. While his injuries are not as severe as Dana's, Kevin does not escape unscathed. He has a scar on his forehead that he acquires while living in the nineteenth century. Their disfigurements, their texts of scarring, are significant:

their wounds may help them to work together to recover and to rebuild their strength; or these different wounds may intensify the destructive power dynamics that perpetuate inequality and dominance, forcing Kevin and Dana to go their separate ways.... Both Dana and Kevin are implicated. Neither is innocent, morally superior, or passive. It is evident that the relationship between blacks and whites is mutually interactive. (Paulin 189)

Their disfigurements may also be read symbolically: both black and white Americans have been scarred by the institution and legacy of slavery."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2278/is_3_26/ai_83042392/print

'Course, a bump on the head is in no way equal to the loss of a limb(!), but I think the idea that Dana and Kevin DONT 'live happily ever after' after what they've gone through, is an interesting proposition.

elle simple

01-16-07, 10:11 PM

Flipper_Purify

01-18-07, 01:55 AM

subc

01-18-07, 05:48 PM

elle simple

01-18-07, 10:08 PM

I was surprised by him being white as well, especially when they mentioned having black history books in their apartment. I think it maybe just added to the open-mindedness of their characters, which made the transition to back in the day even more of a severe contrast?

that's a good point. But I have to say, the way it was portrayed in the book, almost makes me feel like race relations have gotten worse since 1979 when it was written.

Got this Q from an online reading guide:

Is Rufus an improvement or simply an alteration of his father? Where, if any, is there evidence of Dana's influence on the young Rufus in his adult character?

Seems like her impact was minimal to me.

elle simple

01-19-07, 03:47 PM

I thought his father was better. It's like he did what he HAD to do (considering the time), but he was fair and a man of his word. Rufus only did things out of selfishness and what would benefit him. I don't think Dana had any influence on Rufus at all. Just like the book said Rufus thought of Alice and Dana as one person. Dana the mental or part he could talk to and Alice was the physical. Once Alice died, he tried to make Dana be both.

I agree... and as much as she tried to teach him, even when he was young, the norms of their time took over. Sad. Makes me wonder if going back was all in vain? like what was the point?

the more I think about this book, the less sure I am of if I like it. I agree w/what femme said that it's dope it makes you think by not answering all the questions, but at the same time, it's not very hopeful beyond the fact the US has progressed from slavery days... Dana lost her arm, got back home w/her hubby, everyone got sold off, the end. It doesnt seem like her being in the past changed ANYTHING except for injury to HER.

I'm in a cynical mood today I think.... would love to hear an opposite take on it....

elle simple

01-19-07, 03:59 PM

Sorry, but I totally agree. This book doesn't really have a point, imo and although the story was interesting, I didn't like the book. It's like almost having an orgasm and the phone rings and it's your mom whose not taking "i'll call you back" for an answer.

ewww @ mom interrupting my O :laugh: but yea... I'm not satisfied either.

Cerebral Knievel

01-19-07, 04:16 PM

What do you think is the author's motive in having them be an interracial couple? Would the story have worked without that? To be honest, it kind of surprised me that Kevin was white; it made for more tension when he was in the past w/her obviously, but I couldnt help feeling like there was still something unexplored about that dimension of their own relationship.... ? cant quite put my finger on it....

Interracial relationships are a common theme in Butler's books.

Her books often feature a black female as the central character involved in relationships with people of different races or generations. She often used the them to underline the "sameness" of people and attack the racism and sexism in science fiction (where women and minorities are either absent or scenery for the white male hero) and the world at large.

I think she also wanted a stark contrast between a racist and non-racist white male..Kevin was the "anti-Rufus" and by making him SO good she preemptively stopped any criticism that this was a typical "black writer" type novel where the whites (esp. the men) are hollow villains that exist only to underline the nobility of the black lead.

http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/racism/010830.octaviabutleressay.html

link to a writing she did off of npr's website.

Cerebral Knievel

01-19-07, 04:49 PM

I blame Cerebral Knieval. He suggested this damn book. OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!

I stomp on your big toe with the ferocity of a 16th century mongolian beserker if you continue trying to hate on this book. :hmm:

What made you all think it was her job to change Rufus?

Have you considered that perhaps her efforts were a desperate attempt to find good in herself by finding good in him? No one wants to believe that they are the descendant of an absolute pig...it's the whole halo effect thing..we rationalize to make difficult things easier to swallow..her visits shattered that illusion.

elle simple

01-19-07, 05:02 PM

What made you all think it was her job to change Rufus?

Have you considered that perhaps her efforts were a desperate attempt to find good in herself by finding good in him? No one wants to believe that they are the descendant of an absolute pig...it's the whole halo effect thing..we rationalize to make difficult things easier to swallow..her visits shattered that illusion.

Very interesting take, I'm feeling that. She made it seem like it was her job tho, teaching him about the n-word and not calling him Master and speaking proper english even tho it brought negative attention to her, etc.

Re: the interracial thing; sounds similar to what I was saying about how I thought Kevin had to be white so it wouldnt be possible for her to turn on all white people (or have it seem like the author was against all white people). His character was a little flat to me tho. idk.

I appreciate her mixing up the norms of sci fi w/black women characters,
that's dope, unfortunately that alone doesnt guarantee literary greatness....

Cerebral Knievel

01-19-07, 05:19 PM

Very interesting take, I'm feeling that. She made it seem like it was her job tho, teaching him about the n-word and not calling him Master and speaking proper english even tho it brought negative attention to her, etc.

Re: the interracial thing; sounds similar to what I was saying about how I thought Kevin had to be white so it wouldnt be possible for her to turn on all white people (or have it seem like the author was against all white people). His character was a little flat to me tho. idk.

I appreciate her mixing up the norms of sci fi w/black women characters,
that's dope, unfortunately that alone doesnt guarantee literary greatness....

It WAS her job....on a very basic level you NEED to redeem yourself in the face of a horrible truth. She was trying to convince herself that he was merely a product of the ignorance of his times....she instead had to face that fact that he was a TRULY bad person..which made the act of saving him THAT much more interesting..it was inherently selfish..she had to balance her beliefs against her own survival. There was no doubt the world would have been a better place if Rufus would have died...and she knew it...in the end though..she saved a pig to save herself...it was an excellent example of how people surrender high minded ideals when faced with life or death. Examination of human nature and all that isht...

And yeah..Kevin served his purpose..to redeem whites in general and white males in particular in the story (hollow males of this type exist in most novels by women from what I've seen)..it's not a "bash book" if a positive character exists..no matter how hollow.

Cerebral Knievel

01-19-07, 05:20 PM

It only made sense for Kevin to be white. Had she took her black husband back with her and left him as she did Kevin, he would have been sold. Plus there would have been to way the two of them could stay together so they could go back together.

*places book on top of CK's head and uses it as a coaster*

Eh..that was a convenience....she could have used some scheme to have them both runaway and return to the future if she wanted to take the story in that direction.

elle simple

01-19-07, 05:34 PM

It WAS her job....on a very basic level you NEED to redeem yourself in the face of a horrible truth. She was trying to convince herself that he was merely a product of the ignorance of his times....she instead had to face that fact that he was a TRULY bad person..which made the act of saving him THAT much more interesting..it was inherently selfish..she had to balance her beliefs against her own survival. There was no doubt the world would have been a better place if Rufus would have died...and she knew it...in the end though..she saved a pig to save herself...it was an excellent example of how people surrender high minded ideals when faced with life or death. Examination of human nature and all that isht...
And yeah..Kevin served his purpose..to redeem whites in general and white males in particular in the story (hollow males of this type exist in most novels by women from what I've seen)..it's not a "bash book" if a positive character exists..no matter how hollow.

I want to hump your brain :blush:

*recovers self*

the bold part sums it up very well. I like that that harsh reality is foregrounded in the book... it resonates with the part where she is sympathetic towards the cook's acceptance of her situation after being raised in it, having 3 of 4 children sold from her, and also having established her own circle of influence in the household, limited as it may be.

ouch@your criticism of "most novels by women" tho... even if it is true in this case

Did anyone check out the SciFi Channel version (http://www.scifi.com/kindred/)? I only listened to the first part b/c it is VERY DIFFERENT from the book... not an 'audio book' at all... I didnt wanna confuse myself about the book and listen to more. But I kind of liked what they did with putting sort of um historical interludes of real life slave experiences throughout, really tied this modern novel with the powerful 1st person narratives of the past

Cerebral Knievel

01-19-07, 05:49 PM

I want to hump your brain :blush:
*recovers self*
the bold part sums it up very well. I like that that harsh reality is foregrounded in the book... it resonates with the part where she is sympathetic towards the cook's acceptance of her situation after being raised in it, having 3 of 4 children sold from her, and also having established her own circle of influence in the household, limited as it may be.
ouch@your criticism of "most novels by women" tho... even if it is true in this case
Did anyone check out the SciFi Channel version (http://www.scifi.com/kindred/)? I only listened to the first part b/c it is VERY DIFFERENT from the book... not an 'audio book' at all... I didnt wanna confuse myself about the book and listen to more. But I kind of liked what they did with putting sort of um historical interludes of real life slave experiences throughout, really tied this modern novel with the powerful 1st person narratives of the past

:laugh:

:blush:

That's the way I took the story.

And honestly...most of the novels I read by female authors do generally create very hollow male characters..and if most of them are oppressive or offensive..there's always at least one tossed in to make a token attempt at "balance" (generally he's an enlightened prince type)....in many ways it's very informative.

elle simple

01-19-07, 06:35 PM

:laugh:
:blush:
That's the way I took the story.
And honestly...most of the novels I read by female authors do generally create very hollow male characters..and if most of them are oppressive or offensive..there's always at least one tossed in to make a token attempt at "balance" (generally he's an enlightened prince type)....in many ways it's very informative.

hmmm I still think ur generalization is probably too sweeping; I'm gonna have to start looking for that now when I read. Tho I must say, I dont read many novels, esp ones written by women. Guess I could do more of that. I tend more towards non-fiction. In any case, I'll refrain from opening a can of worms about the representation of women in novels written by men...

Cerebral Knievel

01-19-07, 07:03 PM

hmmm I still think ur generalization is probably too sweeping; I'm gonna have to start looking for that now when I read. Tho I must say, I dont read many novels, esp ones written by women. Guess I could do more of that. I tend more towards non-fiction. In any case, I'll refrain from opening a can of worms about the representation of women in novels written by men...

I gladly admit women and minorities generally are very badly created and recognized as characters.

Flipper_Purify

01-20-07, 04:39 AM

I want to hump your brain :blush:
*recovers self*
the bold part sums it up very well. I like that that harsh reality is foregrounded in the book... it resonates with the part where she is sympathetic towards the cook's acceptance of her situation after being raised in it, having 3 of 4 children sold from her, and also having established her own circle of influence in the household, limited as it may be.
ouch@your criticism of "most novels by women" tho... even if it is true in this case
Did anyone check out the SciFi Channel version (http://www.scifi.com/kindred/)? I only listened to the first part b/c it is VERY DIFFERENT from the book... not an 'audio book' at all... I didnt wanna confuse myself about the book and listen to more. But I kind of liked what they did with putting sort of um historical interludes of real life slave experiences throughout, really tied this modern novel with the powerful 1st person narratives of the past wow, didn't even think of lookin if they made a flick outta the book...thanks for the link. when I read the book, I was picturing Alfre Woodard as Dana. Lo and behold, she's cast as Dana. Oddities.

but :laugh: at nerds..."a dramatic online presentation"

Cerebral Knievel

01-20-07, 11:05 AM

I guess, but that would have made the story even more far fetched than it already is, no?
I guess my real problem with the book is that it never really answered any of my questions. Dana was already an adult so that means that Rufus survived just fine without her, so what was the reason for her going back? I don't know it just seemed to me like this book was written without real rhyme or reason. Just a story thrown together and the reader is left to interpret the meaning if there was an actual meaning to begin with.

Eh....it's sci-fi/fantasy...far fetched is hard to define in a story about a woman that time travels against her will into the antebellum south to save her racist slavemaster grandfather....

Think about it like this...Rufus survived just fine because all that time ago he was saved by a mysterious slave that protected him...SHE HAD to go back so that Rufus WOULD be saved from himself..this is HOW Rufus survived...the same thing was played out in Back to the Future..Marty survived because he went back and made sure that his parents met...she was born because Rufus was saved by the mysterious slave..her journey was "the how".

subc

01-30-07, 02:14 PM

geez..cerebral really took over the book club here didn't he...

I still have 40 pages left. :(

offthabooks

01-30-07, 02:32 PM

I have I think....60 pages left. I took a break from reading this to focus on my GRE studying. So, I guess I'll save my thoughts for when I'm totally finished. My impression so far is: interesting, but def not "can't put down".

Cerebral Knievel

01-30-07, 05:20 PM

geez..cerebral really took over the book club here didn't he...
I still have 40 pages left. :(

:guilty:

aight...I quit...I quitchostoopidclub...:angry:

Cerebral Knievel

01-30-07, 05:38 PM

More time for American Idol. You watching tonight?

YOU KNOW IT!

Make sure to up the thread!!!

elle simple

01-31-07, 10:14 PM

geez..cerebral really took over the book club here didn't he...

that was the plan from the beginning wasnt it? ...lure him into a quiet, out of the way forum, then jump his ass :blush:

nah but, even tho the convo was short, it was good by sohh standards, so you and OTB pls dont forget to chime in with some last words of wisdom?!

When Kindred was being considered as a topic for this book club, I was thinking the convo might get heated... didnt really happen like that, but I didnt get the feeling anyone was holding back? Maybe there was a time when a book like this wouldve had more impact....?

Anyway, I feel better both about myself (go literacy!) and sohh (thanks to all who participated!) for having read it . Thank you especially sir Cerebral for both suggesting and speaking eloquently about the novel.

:hug:

pl2584

02-02-07, 01:08 PM

hi sorry I'm late :O
SOHH, if you've been reading Kindred, maybe state where you are in the book and what your thoughts are so far? Something you liked or didnt like? Something that surprised you or made you think?

i like her other books

subc

02-02-07, 01:40 PM

that was the plan from the beginning wasnt it? ...lure him into a quiet, out of the way forum, then jump his ass :blush:

nah but, even tho the convo was short, it was good by sohh standards, so you and OTB pls dont forget to chime in with some last words of wisdom?!

When Kindred was being considered as a topic for this book club, I was thinking the convo might get heated... didnt really happen like that, but I didnt get the feeling anyone was holding back? Maybe there was a time when a book like this wouldve had more impact....?

Anyway, I feel better both about myself (go literacy!) and sohh (thanks to all who participated!) for having read it . Thank you especially sir Cerebral for both suggesting and speaking eloquently about the novel.

:hug:

I think there is SO much more in this book that we didn't talk about.

For example, her refusal and then eventual transformation into the "mammy" role. Or the way she kept a very large and noticable difference between the 1976 Dana and the antebellum Dana at first, then seemed to switch -becomming more involved in the past than the present. Even Kevin and his issues trying to ease back into his role after a 5 year absence.

Or the husband/wife dynamic in the book...and Dana's inability to stop forgiving Rufus for his actions...

Bah.

(oh yeah, and Cerebral is a pretty cool guy)

elle simple

02-02-07, 03:28 PM

I think there is SO much more in this book that we didn't talk about.

true... our timing w/everyone could have been better... but glad you could make it ;)

For example, her refusal and then eventual transformation into the "mammy" role. Or the way she kept a very large and noticable difference between the 1976 Dana and the antebellum Dana at first, then seemed to switch -becomming more involved in the past than the present. Even Kevin and his issues trying to ease back into his role after a 5 year absence.
Or the husband/wife dynamic in the book...and Dana's inability to stop forgiving Rufus for his actions...

bold statement... what makes you say she transformed to that role? I saw her as being sympathetic, but not really embodying it?

the husband/wife dynamic has kind of been tripping me out from the jump; I cant decide if it is realistic, dated, or pure fiction. The added dimension of Kevin not being there and then having to re-adjust complicates things a lot no doubt, did Butler explore that sufficiently for you?

What do you think of our earlier discussion of Kevin as a flat and perhaps even stereotypical nice guy type character? You see more complexity in him?

Cerebral Knievel

02-02-07, 04:47 PM

Anyway, I feel better both about myself (go literacy!) and sohh (thanks to all who participated!) for having read it . Thank you especially sir Cerebral for both suggesting and speaking eloquently about the novel.

:hug:

:thumbsup: :hug:

subc

02-02-07, 05:11 PM

true... our timing w/everyone could have been better... but glad you could make it ;)
bold statement... what makes you say she transformed to that role? I saw her as being sympathetic, but not really embodying it?
the husband/wife dynamic has kind of been tripping me out from the jump; I cant decide if it is realistic, dated, or pure fiction. The added dimension of Kevin not being there and then having to re-adjust complicates things a lot no doubt, did Butler explore that sufficiently for you?
What do you think of our earlier discussion of Kevin as a flat and perhaps even stereotypical nice guy type character? You see more complexity in him?

You're right, perhaps "transformation" isn't the right word...but she accepted it. She accepted a lot, but she was very conscious of it which was also interesting.

And no, she didn't explore it sufficiently for me but I think she didn't on purpose. She didn't really explore many of the "1976 issues," including their relationship. The only time she really explored their relationship was in the past tense, when they met, how they met, etc.

I'll have to go back and read the discussion on Kevin...I wasn't reading this thread because I hadn't finished the book yet and didn't want anything to be ruined.