2pac > Jay-z

[Jay-Young]

and what exactly is your point in quoting my post hoeboy??? U done???

[doeboy]

dude didnt seem to believe that some1 would be so stupid as to say something like that, so i simply showed him that you are that stupid.

[Jay-Young]

dude didnt seem to believe that some1 would be so stupid as to say something like that, so i simply showed him that you are that stupid.

damn dogg it always some fukk boi like uto come and ruin a good arguement over some silly sh1t it's all good tho homie ima just keep chasin that word that start wit a M, end wit a y and got 1 in the middle. holla

[RAYDOGG]

damn 3 years later Raydogg STILL stannin for Pac. at least you stopped with the shirtless avatars of him, ***


so its been 3 years and u r still worry about my music taste been better than yours, and how about lets talk how ur a pathetic loser that has the double amount of post and join at the same time....

[RAYDOGG]

thats sohh ether right there, homey really said "im jay's biggest fan"?
oh, and doeboy spelled "abandoned" wrong, but don't sweat the money, I don't need it, some of us ain't desperate and broke enough to be yellin "Pay me b!tch" over dumb shyt on the internet.


this nicca is from queens probally livin in a fukkin aparment, u wish u live the california lifestyle that I'm livin its okay to be jealouse:laugh:

[Mandizi]

2pac > Jay-z


^^^^this is obvious, 2pac=g.o.a.t.

[Spike Lee]

nas >> jayz

[MNFBackwordz]

nas >> jayz
:dry: NO.

and to the threadstarter- who is obviously on crack:

Jay>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2packs

[MNFBackwordz]

didn't say it was everything, but Pac to me is way too simple. I feel a rapper should deliver a dope message but at the same time play with the words. It's just a natural progression of the poetry that is rap.
:yes: he was no different than most punchline rappers and in many ways his style was like Kanye's.

He rapped mostly about social issues but his flow was horrible and it was obvious that he was an amateur at rapping.

I like Pac's music but it is just very simplistic, cliche, black-power type of cookie cutter raps. Nothin really that creative or improtant about it.

[T.N.C.]

C/S! 2pac is great and is in my top 5 of all time but his rhymes were mad simple, where he shines is with his voice and delivery and energy/passion/emotion, but as a pure lyricist Jay shiits on Pac and that is the most important aspect of hip hop to me, but I can understand people with different preferences liking Pac more. Pac and Ice Cube were alike in the way that they had simple rhymes but their forte was touching on imporant social and political subject matter and having a strong delivery and a lot of emotion in their music.


Two things:

1. How do you DEFINE lyricist?

I hear niccas talk all about who is a better lyricist without really understanding what it means. Lyrics are defined by two things WORDPLAY and CONTENT. I'm not gonna sit here and lie, Jay has more creative wordplay than 2Pac (I will say that Pac's wordplay was meant to appeal to a wider audience tho), however there is not a Jay-Z fan alive than can honestly Jay's content is better than Pac's. I've said for about a decade now than when it comes to LYRICAL CONTENT, NO ONE is seeing 2Pac.

He is probably the deepest rapper the game has ever seen (partly due to his surroundings growing up) and due his enormous body of work, he has a song about almost everything and a song you could play no matter what emotion you are feeling at the moment.



2. If pure lyricism is all that matters to you, there is NO WAY Jay-Z could be your GOAT, much less even compare to Nas.

If Jay makes 2Pac look simple, then Nas makes Jay-Z look childlike in his rhymes. Not to mention there are probably at least 10-20 emcees that have better lyricism than Jay-Z alone (GZA, Raekwon, Talib, Common, Immortal Tech, Rakim, Kool G Rap, etc.).


Jay is one of the most well rounded emcees EVER and this, plus his massive wealth makes a lot of cats put him as #1, but from an objective standpoint there is no way he could be above 2Pac because Pac was one of the few emcees MORE versitile and well rounded in EVERY area than Jay AND (looking purely at album sales and not outside music business ventures) 2Pac actually ALSO generated more money than Jay-Z.


Using your logic, there is no way Jay could be the GOAT.

[hiphop1000]

If Gay-Z was so hard as people say he is now where was his responses to Pac when he was dissing him. He must have been scared, because he acts like he doesn't want to diss people that aren't on his level well Pac was above his level at the time and it could've really helped his career if he smashed Pac. Pac is the G.O.A.T because he mashed on all the hottest rappers of his time and all were scared to diss back. In this game when you are comparing people all you can go on is when they go against each other to determine who is best. Thats just like if me and someone get into a fight if they beat me down how in the hell can I say afterwards that I can whoop them if I didn't do it when I had the chance.
those two bolded parts just indicated to me that u cant be older than 13years old.

[Crazy_Serbian]

the emotion 2pac was able to convey through a microphone is something jay-z could never do no matter how hard he tried, and this is coming from jay's biggest fan. Not only that but in a sense, 2pac was also much more versatile than jay-z.... Hell the only thing jay-z has advantage of over pac is his wordplay and rhyme structure.... pac beat him in every other category, including image, delivery, and song structure.... Like I said, if Pac was still alive, he would without a doubt be considered the greatest rapper to ever touch a microphone, point blank period. Kill ya selves if you disagree.

fukk the emotions you sensitive b1tches

[MNFBackwordz]

Two things:
1. How do you DEFINE lyricist?
I hear niccas talk all about who is a better lyricist without really understanding what it means. Lyrics are defined by two things WORDPLAY and CONTENT. I'm not gonna sit here and lie, Jay has more creative wordplay than 2Pac (I will say that Pac's wordplay was meant to appeal to a wider audience tho), however there is not a Jay-Z fan alive than can honestly Jay's content is better than Pac's. I've said for about a decade now than when it comes to LYRICAL CONTENT, NO ONE is seeing 2Pac.
He is probably the deepest rapper the game has ever seen (partly due to his surroundings growing up) and due his enormous body of work, he has a song about almost everything and a song you could play no matter what emotion you are feeling at the moment.
2. If pure lyricism is all that matters to you, there is NO WAY Jay-Z could be your GOAT, much less even compare to Nas.
If Jay makes 2Pac look simple, then Nas makes Jay-Z look childlike in his rhymes. Not to mention there are probably at least 10-20 emcees that have better lyricism than Jay-Z alone (GZA, Raekwon, Talib, Common, Immortal Tech, Rakim, Kool G Rap, etc.).
Jay is one of the most well rounded emcees EVER and this, plus his massive wealth makes a lot of cats put him as #1, but from an objective standpoint there is no way he could be above 2Pac because Pac was one of the few emcees MORE versitile and well rounded in EVERY area than Jay AND (looking purely at album sales and not outside music business ventures) 2Pac actually ALSO generated more money than Jay-Z.
Using your logic, there is no way Jay could be the GOAT.

how can you answer your own question and then proceed to say that 2packs is still better??

Wordplay and Flow is key plus whats so deep about 2pac. Wow hw rhymes about the same pro Black cliche stuff all the time. thats not deep.

by that same token I guess Flava Flav is deep, or Chamillionaire is deep because of 'ridin dirty'. thats preposterous.

Content wise Jay has already adressed that :"People say you should spit that real shiitt/ I say you should buy it...shiiiitt thats good business"

:yes: GOAT

[C.R.£.A.M]

2Pac >>> Jay-Z

Not to take sh1t away from Jay he is great, Pac >>> Alotta rappers.

[I LUV PURP]

And I say this because the only, and i mean ONLY reason jay-z is considered the greatest rapper of all time is because 2pac died...... point blank period. Fact: Had 2pac still been alive to this date, it would be an impossible argument to say he is NOT the g.o.a.t, even if jay-z had the same exact career he's had now. In this regards, 2pac was robbed of the GOAT crown by jay-z, simply because he died, not by choice...... This argument is unarguable.

Fvck who gives a sh1t? Thats all you n1ggas talk about? How many threads are out here like this..............1,000,000,000,000,000,.............:dry: Come on cuz, how are you trying to better ur community, some real ****...............

step ya level game up!!!!

[MNFBackwordz]

And I say this because the only, and i mean ONLY reason jay-z is considered the greatest rapper of all time is because 2pac died...... point blank period. Fact: Had 2pac still been alive to this date, it would be an impossible argument to say he is NOT the g.o.a.t, even if jay-z had the same exact career he's had now. In this regards, 2pac was robbed of the GOAT crown by jay-z, simply because he died, not by choice...... This argument is unarguable.
first of all most people say that Jay is rated high because Biggie is dead not Pac. Secondlly nobody said 2pac was great until he died. He was treated with disgust, like 50 is treated today, before he died.

Dieing was the best thing to happen to 2packs, otherwise no one would mention his name as a geat rapper.

[TUPACALYPSE]

first of all most people say that Jay is rated high because Biggie is dead not Pac. Secondlly nobody said 2pac was great until he died. He was treated with disgust, like 50 is treated today, before he died.
Dieing was the best thing to happen to 2packs, otherwise no one would mention his name as a geat rapper.


SMH @ THIS JAY-Z SUPER STAN DEFENDING HIS HERO :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :laugh: LOL @ 2PAC STILL SELLIN MORE RECORDS THEN CAMEL

[Yellosaurus]

SMH @ THIS JAY-Z SUPER STAN DEFENDING HIS HERO :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :laugh: LOL @ 2PAC STILL SELLIN MORE RECORDS THEN CAMEL


How the phuck you gonna call ANYONE a stan when your screen name is TUPACALYPSE and you got a picture of Pac in your avatar?

[TUPACALYPSE]

How the phuck you gonna call ANYONE a stan when your screen name is TUPACALYPSE and you got a picture of Pac in your avatar?


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: are u blind? :thumbsdow :thumbsdow @THIS CHUMP SEEIN 2PAC EVERY WHERE HE GOES :dry: :dry: @ HER BEING OFF TOPIC AS USUAL WHAT DOES MY LEGENDARY NAME HAVE TO DO WITH 2PAC BEING BETTER THEN CAMEL?

[Yellosaurus]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: are u blind? :thumbsdow :thumbsdow @THIS CHUMP SEEIN 2PAC EVERY WHERE HE GOES :dry: :dry: @ HER BEING OFF TOPIC AS USUAL WHAT DOES MY LEGENDARY NAME HAVE TO DO WITH 2PAC BEING BETTER THEN CAMEL?

You called someone a stan.

Your screen name is tupacalypse.

You're a hypocrite.

Peace.

[TUPACALYPSE]

You called someone a stan.
Your screen name is tupacalypse.
You're a hypocrite.
Peace.


:laugh: :laugh: LOL @ THIS FANTATIC F4GG CATCHING FEELINGS ABOUT MY SCREEN NAME ITS JUST A NAME SWEETY WIPE DEM TEARS OFF NOW

[T.N.C.]

how can you answer your own question and then proceed to say that 2packs is still better??


I was giving an answer as to where MY head is at in the discussion. I mean, me just saying my opinion and nothing else doesn't prove anything, but I back up my opinion with an arguement and reasons for it.


I was asking the question to see if dude AGREES with me or not. I mean, if he disagrees with me, its no wonder we don't see eye-to-eye because we are using different definitions of a term, so we are gonna have different standards.


Wordplay and Flow is key plus whats so deep about 2pac. Wow hw rhymes about the same pro Black cliche stuff all the time. thats not deep.


How is Pro Black stuff "cliche"?

If its a relevant issue, especially in the black community, its actually a concious topic to rhyme about. Also when you consider than 90% of emcees do nothing but talk about their wealth and status (something Jay is notorious for) its a major change for someone to talk about actually topics a normal person can relate too.

And are you trying to say Pac wasn't deep?



by that same token I guess Flava Flav is deep, or Chamillionaire is deep because of 'ridin dirty'. thats preposterous.
Content wise Jay has already adressed that :"People say you should spit that real shiitt/ I say you should buy it...shiiiitt thats good business"
:yes: GOAT



I don't get the Flav or Cham comparision to Pac. Flav wasn't the main one rappin about issues, Chuck D was and to say he wasn't deep would be to lose your credibility. I don't know if you heard The Sound of Revenge, but Cham actually had a lot of diverse topics on his album from the “racial profiling” on Ridin Dirty and the dealing with stress issues on “The Rain” to his finding religion on “Void in my Life”. These are not typical song topics for mainstream hip hop and it’s a definite change from the common “women, money and drug rap” most emcees use.

As far as the Jay line, look at it yourself. Nearly EVERYTHING Jay-Z raps about is about the sole goal or getting money. As a BUSINESS MAN, Jay is untouchable compared to other emcees, but as an ARTIST that is a very limited and shallow career topic. Do you think Jay-Z could ever make a complete album without mentioning his wealth?

And Jay-Z HIMSELF has admitted he dumbs down his lyrics for the money, you can’t turn it around and say he is deep.

[MNFBackwordz]

As far as the Jay line, look at it yourself. Nearly EVERYTHING Jay-Z raps about is about the sole goal or getting money. As a BUSINESS MAN, Jay is untouchable compared to other emcees, but as an ARTIST that is a very limited and shallow career topic. Do you think Jay-Z could ever make a complete album without mentioning his wealth?
And Jay-Z HIMSELF has admitted he dumbs down his lyrics for the money, you can’t turn it around and say he is deep.
he wasnt confessing anything he was saying that he the he did it best, no one has been more successful at it then him...which just shows just how smart he is.

whatever man, opinion is opinion but if you ask people 9 out of ten will say Hov is the best to do it ever..so there is your answer.

[Wolfe]

Young Dro > Tupac > Jay-Z

[MNFBackwordz]

lol props mods on movin this crap to BeefZone...these dirty black kids try to slander Hov's name.

Im gonna up the Nas vs. Pac thread in thaSpot...dont move it here in BeefZone ight..let those nas stans boil over. hahahaha

props again.

[T.N.C.]

he wasnt confessing anything he was saying that he the he did it best, no one has been more successful at it then him...which just shows just how smart he is.
whatever man, opinion is opinion but if you ask people 9 out of ten will say Hov is the best to do it ever..so there is your answer.


Jay-Z was confessing that he ACTUALLY preferred rhyming like Talib and Common, but the allure of money from dumbing down his lyrics was too much for him to deny. No one is saying Jay isn't smart, he is one of the best business men ever in hip hop, but he is far from the most successful artist.

Hell, even if you compare album sales Pac has Jay beat.

Total album sales: Pac > Jay
Best selling album: Pac > Jay
Better selling double disk: Pac > Jay
Last album sales: Pac > Jay


Jay made majority of his money WITH Dame and Biggs through Rocawear and outside business ventures, just going by music sales Jay doesn't even pass Eminem.


And what 9 out of 10 people are YOU talkin to? Any dude over the age of 21 will say Pac is better than Jay. Maybe some white people might agree with you, but :laugh:

[Elijah Hamilton]

I think it's difficult to classify one rapper as the greatest of all time, when different rappers have individual styles and listeners have different tastes. I.E. I think Chino XL is a better lyricist than Jay-Z. So is Chino the G.O.A.T.? Maybe to me, but maybe not to you. It's all a matter of preference.

P.S. Big Daddy Kane is the G.O.A.T.

[T.N.C.]

I think it's difficult to classify one rapper as the greatest of all time, when different rappers have individual styles and listeners have different tastes. I.E. I think Chino XL is a better lyricist than Jay-Z. So is Chino the G.O.A.T.? Maybe to me, but maybe not to you. It's all a matter of preference.

P.S. Big Daddy Kane is the G.O.A.T.


I agree with you, however I might have your answer as to finding an objective way of finding the GOAT, IF you have the patience to read all this:


Hip Hop Categories


1. Flow
2. Delivery
3. Lyrics (wordplay)
4. Lyrical Content
5. Voice
6. Longevity
7. Consistency
8. Catalogue
9. Impact
10. Accomplishments
11. Songwriting ability
12. Mic presence
13. Versitility
14. Influence
15. Record Sales
16. Relevance
17. Creativity
18. Originality
19. Concepts
20. The Intangibles

Commonly referred to as rappin or Rap. Its practitioners are known as Emcees or Rappers. The Emcee is a Hiphop poet who directs and moves the crowd by rhythmically rhyming in spoken word. The word Emcee comes from the abbreviated form of Master of Ceremonies (M.C.). In its traditional sense, (M.C.) refers to the hosting of an event – the master of a ceremony or event. Early Hiphoppas transformed the traditional character of the M.C. to include crowd participation routines and poetry. Today, the Emcee seeks to be a master of the spoken word, not just the best Rapper. Emcees also deliver lectures and other forms of public instructions. Most Emcees rate themselves on their ability to speak clearly and tell a good story.


Popularized by Cab Calloway, Coke La Rock, Busy Bee, Cowboy, Melle Mel, Grandmaster Caz, Kool Moe Dee, Big Daddy Kane, Muhammad Ali and others.

My definitions:

1. Flow - The way the lyrics synch up with the beat, how well one can stay on beat or rhyme at a consistent pace
2. Delivery – The passion, tone and energy in which an MC presents their lyrics.
3. Lyrics (wordplay) – HOW you say things, the way you present them and the words chosen to speak your message
4. Lyrical Content = WHAT you are actually saying. The message or coherent thoughts behind our lyrics
5. Voice – The power your voice has when performing songs or lyrics
6. Longevity – The length of time an MC is in the game and remains relevant
7. Consistency – How long an MC can remain at a certain standard or level of performance
8. Catalogue – The total amount of work (mainly focusing on albums) and songs an MC has to their claim
9. Impact – How strong of an impression an MC made during their tenure in the game the amount of people they affected
10. Accomplishments – The goals and accolades an MC gained or accomplished during their career.
11. Songwriting ability – An MC’s ability to write or create diverse or quality songs
12. Mic presence – The bearing and authority an MC commands on the mic. The way an MC commands the listeners attention while rapping.
13. Versitility – How diverse an MC is in regards to their rapping and song writing ability
14. Influence – How an MC affected his peers, the industry and the Hip Hop culture overall
15. Record Sales – The amount of fans an MC has obtained and the amount of people they may have reached
16. Relevance – An MC’s status in the game and hip-hop culture.
17. Creativity – An MC’s ability to stay unique and create new and different material
18. Originality – An MC’s ability to reinvent themselves and stand-out from the competition.
19. Concepts – The amount of different types of ideas or styles an MC creates or uses in their rhymes.
20. The Intangibles/Miscellaneous – The intangibles categories such as Live Performance, Vocabulary, Freestyle ability, Battle Skills, Flavor and Style.


I think the easiest way for people to get these is to rank each emcee in each category (I think 1-100 point system would be the most decisive, but for the sake of brevity, we can rank emcees on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best) and either find who has the highest point total, or who has the best overall average.

As I guideline, I think its easiest to go through EACH category and find an emcee that can represent values of 1, 5 and 10, as to find examples of the worst, the best and the “average” of each stat.

For example, In the “Lyrical Content” category, I’d rank 2Pac as a “10” (Largest recorded catalogue in hip hop plus songs for just about every topic or mood makes him probably the deepest rapper ever) and I’d rank someone like Bizarre from D12 as a “1” (very limited content and subject matter and usually has incoherent ramblings as his rhymes). Ranking the “5” is a bitter trickier because they will most likely be used at the “bar” to rank everyone else as either “above” or “below” that emcee. I’d probably place someone like Eminem or Prodigy as that “5” (both dope emcees, but have somewhat limited content or repetitive subject matter) and if I wanted to find out where 50 Cent would rank in the “Lyrical Content” category I’d see how he compared to these other emcees and rank him there.

[Swagger]

alive > dead

[Websclusive]

opinions, opinions, opinions we all them does not change anything, pac is dead and HOV will e leaving the game soon, you guys will all wake up in th morning and forget all about this....

[Websclusive]

2Pac still holds the number one spot fpr the greatest of all time though....

[Websclusive]

2Pac still holds the number one spot for the greatest of all time though....