Am I the only One Who Gets Tired of Having Chuck Berry or Little Richard.....

[Bone Daddy]

thrown in to every rock discussion. Yeah, those guys did it first, but in the end I don't really like what they did. Just because they were pioneers we don't have to act like they're the best to ever do it. Damn, if someone like Keith Richards didn't always give them props they wouldn't receive half the props they do, which is probably 50% more than they deserve considering quality of the music. I mean "My Ding a ling"? Come on. granted both are excellent muscicians and performers but their songs are crap. Don't act like these guys are the true template any more than the blues guys before them or Elvis at the same time or the Stones and The Beatles afterwards.

[Copper Scroll]

thrown in to every rock discussion. Yeah, those guys did it first, but in the end I don't really like what they did. Just because they were pioneers we don't have to act like they're the best to ever do it. Damn, if someone like Keith Richards didn't always give them props they wouldn't receive half the props they do, which is probably 50% more than they deserve considering quality of the music. I mean "My Ding a ling"? Come on. granted both are excellent muscicians and performers but their songs are crap. Don't act like these guys are the true template any more than the blues guys before them or Elvis at the same time or the Stones and The Beatles afterwards.

I think Chuck Berry's songs are good. It's just a different aesthetic. The rock aesthetic didn't exist when Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley and Little Richard and them were doing it. People like the Beatles and the Stones and Jimi Hendrix and Led Zeppelin created what it means to make "good rock music" based on how Chuck Berry and them innovated on the blues. And Chuck Berry's songs are brilliant from a blues perspective. His and Bo Diddley stuff is good in the same way Muddy Waters and Howlin Wolf are good (just more innovative). They should not be compared to rock singers and bands that followed them. Saying you don't like them as much as some other rock artists just means that you don't like rhythm&blues as much as you like rock.

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

Hey, who's face is on the money in Amerikkka? George Washington. Why? He did it first. Ike Turner is actually the one who doesn't get the credit he deserves. He was the actually the first one to record what was considered "Rock & roll". Now he's just the dude that beat the sh*t outta Tina Turner.

[Mr. Machete]

Chuck Berry is a god.

[flapjacks]

I think Chuck Berry's songs are good. It's just a different aesthetic. The rock aesthetic didn't exist when Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley and Little Richard and them were doing it. People like the Beatles and the Stones and Jimi Hendrix and Led Zeppelin created what it means to make "good rock music" based on how Chuck Berry and them innovated on the blues. And Chuck Berry's songs are brilliant from a blues perspective. His and Bo Diddley stuff is good in the same way Muddy Waters and Howlin Wolf are good (just more innovative). They should not be compared to rock singers and bands that followed them. Saying you don't like them as much as some other rock artists just means that you don't like rhythm&blues as much as you like rock.

Yeah, you're 100% on point with all of that. It is about the perspective of the genres and sub-genres, and if they didn't do what they did then the stage wouldn't've been set for the Stones, Beatles, Zeppelin, etc., to come along with more expansive sounds. And still--as far as evaluating them within their own genre goes--it's tough to beat Chuck Berry and (someone else who I think should be brought into this discussion) Robert Johnson. Also the fact that the members of the rock bands discussed in this thread would themselves lavish more praise on these guys than on any other rock artist speaks volumes about how creativity and growth in popular music was respectfully and knowledgeably passed down the chain.

[flapjacks]

To bring it to a hiphop discussion . . . Damn, you hardly EVER hear any of the more recent greats praise oldschool artists like Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5 or the Cold Crush Brothers. Nas and Jay have only mentioned the old school a very few times. It seems like hiphop artists praise the mid-to-late '80s era waaay more than they do the era before that, probably because the aesthetic of the mid-to-late '80s is still recognizable to those performing today, whereas the older era is alien. I don't know if this is the equivalent of rock artists not recognizing the blues/early rock'n'roll artists that in effect set their own genre up on its feet.

But Kurt Cobain was further away from Muddy Waters--historically--than Nas or whoever is from Melle Mel, and yet Nirvana covered Muddy Waters and seemed more vocal about appreciating him. (Not trying to make this about Nas, obviously he's still waay more knowledgeable about the old school than so many other contemporary rappers, but I'm saying that the appreciation of the hiphop old(est) school isn't as vocal as that of great rock artists appreciating their forefathers.)

[Profasi]

To bring it to a hiphop discussion . . . Damn, you hardly EVER hear any of the more recent greats praise oldschool artists like Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5 or the Cold Crush Brothers. Nas and Jay have only mentioned the old school a very few times. It seems like hiphop artists praise the mid-to-late '80s era waaay more than they do the era before that, probably because the aesthetic of the mid-to-late '80s is still recognizable to those performing today, whereas the older era is alien. I don't know if this is the equivalent of rock artists not recognizing the blues/early rock'n'roll artists that in effect set their own genre up on its feet.

But Kurt Cobain was further away from Muddy Waters--historically--than Nas or whoever is from Melle Mel, and yet Nirvana covered Muddy Waters and seemed more vocal about appreciating him. (Not trying to make this about Nas, obviously he's still waay more knowledgeable about the old school than so many other contemporary rappers, but I'm saying that the appreciation of the hiphop old(est) school isn't as vocal as that of great rock artists appreciating their forefathers.)
The mentality is different.

Why rap about someone else when you can rap about yourself?

[The Amerikkkan Idol]

People still talk about "Rapper's Delight". There's just kind of a time gap between "Rapper's Delight"(1979) to "The Message"(1982). then there's a gap between "The Message" and LL Cool J, Run-DMC, The Beastie Boys, and Boogie Down Productions. Nobody really fills in those holes well in hip-hop history.

[Clem]

Probably as tired I am of hearing about Elvis, The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Led Zep, etc. etc.

[flapjacks]

People still talk about "Rapper's Delight". There's just kind of a time gap between "Rapper's Delight"(1979) to "The Message"(1982). then there's a gap between "The Message" and LL Cool J, Run-DMC, The Beastie Boys, and Boogie Down Productions. Nobody really fills in those holes well in hip-hop history.

Yeah, you're right about the "gap". Another MAJOR factor in old school hiphop's lack of appreciation is because so many of those artists really put in their influential work with live performances, so there's little recorded trace of WHY they were important. I remember an interview with Nas talking about how he had heard OF Cold Crush, but he really had to go out of his way to actually find recordings of them. On the other hand, the Beatles and Hendrix had easy access to Bo Diddley records.

[Street Novelist]

Somebody must have listened to Mos Def's Rock N Roll recently lol

[Bone Daddy]

I think Chuck Berry's songs are good. It's just a different aesthetic. The rock aesthetic didn't exist when Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley and Little Richard and them were doing it. People like the Beatles and the Stones and Jimi Hendrix and Led Zeppelin created what it means to make "good rock music" based on how Chuck Berry and them innovated on the blues. And Chuck Berry's songs are brilliant from a blues perspective. His and Bo Diddley stuff is good in the same way Muddy Waters and Howlin Wolf are good (just more innovative). They should not be compared to rock singers and bands that followed them. Saying you don't like them as much as some other rock artists just means that you don't like rhythm&blues as much as you like rock.
You would be right to assume I'm not crazy about rhythm & Blues, but my point was more so that you don't always have to talk about the entire history of a specific genre to have an appreciation for a particualr artist. I mean you can like Elvis, for example, without having to qualify that with" Well I also respect so and so as well"

[GeneralTarik]

Hey, who's face is on the money in Amerikkka? George Washington. Why? He did it first. Ike Turner is actually the one who doesn't get the credit he deserves. He was the actually the first one to record what was considered "Rock & roll". Now he's just the dude that beat the sh*t outta Tina Turner.


You're right about Ike Turner not getting the credit he deserves. But that "Rocket 88" being the first "Rock & Roll" record is some bs Sam Phillips started. I could play you ten records that predate that song that, for lack of a better term, "rock" just as hard if not more so.